35th Americas Cup: Foiling Multihulls!

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    35th AC--is the past prelude to the future?

    I considered putting this in the 34th AC thread then I figured it had more relevance to this thread. From Scuttlebutt tonight Peter Montgomery discusses why TNZ lost the 34th Americas Cup regatta:

    At what some see as the pinnacle of our sport, the sailing world watched one of the greatest, or one of the worst, dramas unfold in San Francisco at the 34th America’s Cup. The most improbable of all comebacks, or thrilling victories, and also one of the most agonizing of all defeats, played out on the waters of SF Bay, narrated by American commentators, triumphal at the end, and Kiwi analysts, shocked at the crushing defeat. Sail1design.com Airwave New Zealand correspondent, Sara Morgan Watters, got a chance to catch up with Peter Montgomery, the voice of NZL Yachting, and get his thoughts on what happened, and why. -

    See more at: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...efeat Kiwis Perspective#sthash.j783deGp.dpuf
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    35th AC

    According to Scuttlebutt tonight rumors are circulating about a possible change from the AC 62?! Something doesn't feel right-but I can't put my finger on it......
     
  3. Tom.151
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    Tom.151 Senior Member

    You got it Doug,

    Seems clear (much more so now, but was beginning to show itself during planning for AC34) that behind the scenes there is a tacit agreement to try to take the America's Cup to the level of an F1 sport.

    So, if that's even partly accurate, there's a couple of obvious aspects of real interest. First, what's the vehicle/boat going to evolve toward? And second, who can position themselves as the all powerful "Bernie Ecclestone" of the America's Cup (who is personally worth in the neighborhood of $5B USD for his efforts a mere one-tenth of Ellison's net worth BTW).

    Not to forget that the ACWS was/is a likely an early attempt to begin the hard work toward being able to present a continuing "F1 type circus" - with a schedule of competition every year (and really needs annual continuity for big$$ sponsors to get aligned with the sport). So, like him or not, Ellison should get kudos for his foresight at least - and the $1M costs of the smaller AC45 rule boats obviously worked for that.

    Since the AC34 boats are in the order of 3 times as expensive as an F1 car - it's easy to see the benefits of cutting lots of cost out of the vehicle, and getting to the point where the vehicles/boats can be a smaller component of total costs - this leads to being able to have the annual circus (the ACWS) and the big dance (AC35, 36, etc) utilizing the same boats, which seems to me anyway a very logical, economic, and much more 'understandable' format for the media and fans.

    This latest flurry about maybe (more likely than not IMNSHO) an AC35 boat being smaller than the current AC65 rule -- seems only to mean that the teams are working well together and dedicated more to making the AC as an industry a more viable as an ongoing (annual) sport.

    My guess... the new rule will be proximate to an AC55 full foiling formula - with target costs in the $2M to $3M range.

    It will be fun to watch the machinations...
     
  4. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Makes perfect sense. In fact now that foiling is accepted as the way to real performance, the boats can be smaller; who needs a monster when a smaller and continually-being-refined flying foiler will beat it? In fact soon the hulls will disappear altogether and then we'll see true 100% foil boats. Not saying the tops of the foils will not be buoyant though.
    Another change is required: the cat configuration is inferior to the trimaran - therefore let evolution run.
     
  5. Tom.151
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    Tom.151 Senior Member

    Gary, since you're "the guy" on this AFAIK, tell us what you think (from your experience especially) about a trimaran configuration being able to maintain full foiling all the way around the course. Please!

    While it might be a bit early in the evolution for them to open the rule so much that it includes/allows a trimaran configuration for the next round (AC35) - most likely because it would/could be criticized for being to late in the cycle.

    My guess... if AFTER they do get to a new boat rule like an AC55 size/cost range for AC35, it will then be more reasonable to allow a discussion of opening the rule to allow for trimarans for AC36. After AC35 it will be a LOT more obvious that the development costs are about the foils and the rig and that it's okay to allow open development in the platform (tri vs cat).

    I for one never really expected the America's Cup (as an industry/sport) to actually get interesting ;)
     
  6. Marmoset
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    Marmoset Senior Member

    Floating booms maybe? Haha

    Barry
     
  7. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Tom, I should have gone further in my "recommendations" and included the Moth/Mirabaud mono/tri type platform.
    For a start the tri-type has less number of foils, the platform in plan form is a T (sort of) - therefore is less boat (meaning less hull aero and hydro drag) than a cat, also it gets rid of the draggy central rig support structure, the dolphin striker pile of necessary crap - because main hull load carrying is just better on tri-type platform, everyone knows that - and, because the AC is never going to sail in less than 5-7 knots wind (because of course time limitations) the floats on the flying tri are/will be minimal ... because the highly sophisticated foil designs will do the lifting/support work.
    The last AC cats are brilliant and had to arrive - because the monos were a sad joke (just imo) but the big cats (even if they go to 55 feet) are too big, expensive and so on.
    But this won't happen, we know that ... because the foiling multihull configuration has been around since Hansford, Grogono and others ... from the (gasp) 1960s - when the writing was on the wall (to free thinkers) - so it will take some time for more changes to come.
    Don't get me wrong, the cat foilers are magnificent and awe inspiring and the best thing that has ever happened to the stodgy, conservative AC of the past ... but there is a a more sophisticated way to go.
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Foils are the Future-AC 45's to become foilers!

    From the America's Cup 35 site: ( http://www.americascup.com/en/news/117_The-future-is-foiling.html )

    AC45s to be modified; America’s Cup World Series to continue into 2018

    The six America’s Cup teams have agreed to a project that will see the existing fleet of AC45 catamarans modified into fully foiling catamarans for racing in the America’s Cup World Series (ACWS).

    Importantly, the teams have also committed to continue to race the foiling AC45s on the America’s Cup World Series circuit in 2018, following the conclusion of the 35th America’s Cup in 2017.

    “I’m pleased all of the competitors have agreed on a way forward, beyond the current America’s Cup cycle,” said Harvey Schiller, the Commercial Commissioner for the 35th America’s Cup.

    ============

    Another article on the 45's: http://www.boatinternational.com/20...ing-yachts-convert-to-hydrfoiling-catamarans/

    Picture from AC 35 site:
     

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    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    35th America's Cup on Foils!

    This is an excerpt from an excerpt published by Scuttlebut tonight about Team Luna Rosa:
    (read the whole article here: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...m_term=Americas Cup Italians are ready to win )

    While Italy had some initial reservations about using giant foiling catamarans because of safety concerns, Sirena made it clear there was no point in returning to monohulls. The future, he said, was with multihulls. “I personally would not go back to monohulls,” he said. “It would be like going to ask a MotoGP pilot to leave 4-stroke engines to return to the old 2-stroke.” [emphasis added by DL]

    Luna Rossa has taken on the role of Challenger of Record after Team Australia quit, but is keen to adopt a committee approach and wants the America’s Cup venue sorted out by the end of the month. San Diego and Bermuda are vying for the right to host the cup finals in 2017 and Sirena said it was important to get the decision as soon as possible to allow teams to push on with their design work.

    Sirena also indicated a late entry – likely from Asia – would boost the challenger numbers to seven.
     
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    35th AC on Foils!

    Here's an article questioning the safety of the new 62's by a friend and expert on foiler design, Alan Smith:
     

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  12. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Interesting article.

    I doubt any sponsor would be happy with a device that would destroy a very expensive rig. Perhaps that and allowing a "T" shaped foil might be a good combination.

    A high bow, along with a deeply pitched deck might help as well.

    But there is no getting around the fact that these boats are quite extreme in both design and performance.

    They may be well suited for the job at hand, spectacle racing, in more or less inland water conditions. But like any thoroughbred, they are tricky and cantankerous.

    This is to be expected.

    Requiring the crew to wear crash helmets and PFDs may be all that is really necessary to insure minimal hazard to crew.

    These boats can and will pitch pole, just like hydroplanes will stuff a bow, or kite, flipping over backwards. It just has to be an expected part of the sport.
     
  13. Tom.151
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    Tom.151 Senior Member

    Hi Doug,

    Since the primary cause of the dreaded pitchpole tends to be driven by the skip's (crew's) attempting to go faster and win the race - and the pitchpole being the result of the smallest of errors in numerous and often simultaneous technical judgements. When someone (the author) does all that work to explain/determine that the proposed solution is a device, the setting for which is in the hands of the boat operator, he's closing the loop with a complete failure to understand that he ends up back where he started.

    Just saying.

    PS Your foiler work is getting more exciting every day - keep your up your great attitude and your persistence. "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence."

    TomH
     
  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready


  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    35th AC on Foils!

    The British are coming, the British are coming! From Scuttlebutt Europe:

    Ben Ainslie Racing (BAR) took to the water for the first time from their temporary base in Southampton, sailing their foiling AC45. The boat originally raced under BAR colours during the America's Cup World Series in 2012-13, and has subsequently been modified to fly on hydrofoils.

    Photo by Lloyd Images. Click on image to enlarge.
    look closely at the foils.....
     

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