35th Americas Cup: Foiling Multihulls!

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    :D:D Been there, done that :D:D
     
  2. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    ...building up hydraulic power in accumulators,...why wouldn't this method of storing power be applicable down the road to lots of other items on our boats,...even cruising ones.
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    35th America's Cup on Foils---Oracle

    Forbes on Oracle: http://www.forbes.com/sites/oracle/...engineering-marvel-data-machine/#369ef3fe4faf

    "The improved responsiveness of the new control system, which borrows from the flight control system of the Airbus A350 XWB airliner, will make it possible for the first time for the ORACLE TEAM USA catamaran to fly above water for 100% of the race time", said Pierre-Marie Belleau, head of Airbus business development. Speeds approaching 60 mph are possible in the Bermuda races—about 15% faster than in 2013—as competing teams are aiming for 100% fly time as well. It’s gotten to the point, Burns said, where “the team that touches the water first will likely lose the race.”
     
  5. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    I'm not an expert in any way, but it appears that the engineering is more complex than using a winch (either manual or powered) and that the accumulators are mainly used for foil control. As far as I know, there's no popular craft that uses the same method of control, nor is there a practical cruiser that uses foils at sea, so where is the need? And are we really going to see people winding (or cycling) away on a cruising boat so they can store power to use later? Why?

    Even if there was a use, would it be a good thing? How many sailors actually want to spend the vast majority of their race sitting on a stationary bike, steadily pumping up the pressure? As a competitive racing cyclist and a guy who has once or twice been on the grinder on a boat similar to an IACC boat, it appears that there is far more sailing skill required to grind a winch than to pump up an accumulator.

    I've just checked the Yachts and Yachting Nationals Attendance chart for the UK. Multis form a smaller proportion of boats attending UK national titles now than they did in 2010, when the "multihull era" of the AC started. I think the situation is similar in other countries. Incidentally multis form just 6.9% of boats doing national titles, and that excludes most of the mainstream offshore type yachts. When we add them in it appears that multis make up roughly 4% of active racing sailboats.

    As a multi sailor, I am not particularly happy about this. However, what it does show is that the AC is (1) now far more divergent from the sailing mainstream than it used to be and (2) that people haven't adopted multihulls now that they are used in the AC.

    Since multis (let alone foiling wingmasted ones) are such a tiny part of sailboat racing and active racing sailors do not appear to be interested in moving into multis now that the AC is a multi regatta, it seems that there is now a huge disconnect between the sport's marquee event and the vast majority of sailors. That's arguably very bad for any sport but it may also indicate that sailors are much less likely to adopt AC technology than they were in the past.
     
  6. markdrela
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    markdrela Senior Member

    What's wrong with this:
    1) Replace the handles with simple platform pedals.
    2) Lower the grinding post so the cranks just clear the deck. The mechanism inside is the same.
    3) Put a handlebar up where the cranks used to be, mounted on a vertical rod.

    A saddle is not needed for relatively short grinding tasks. Just step on the pedals and go, like with a stairmaster. But even adding a saddle wouldn't complicate mounting and dismounting, as long as there is no "top tube".

    One thing's for sure: For average people, available leg power vastly exceeds arm power. So such a system would make grinding much less strenuous for average sailors.
     
  7. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    That is kind of what I was thinking as well, particularly as I grow older.

    There are a number of task on a cruising vessel (particularly a larger one) that might be accomplished with hydraulic power assist.
     
  8. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Yep, it's got advantages, but would it be practical to pedal at an angle of 25 degrees heel (as in the usual yacht) without G forces compensating as they do when we're cornering on a bike? It's hard to see how anyone would stay on platform pedals on a wet and heeling deck.

    Secondly, would it be as economical on space, crew and cost as a standard winch? Surely they would only replace coffee grinders, rather than the standard winch. It would also probably make all winching a two-person job since it's hard to see someone being able to hold onto the handlebar while also handling the sheet.

    I can see the appeal of leg power to Brian for tasks such raising anchor (although wouldn't electric power be easier?) and if there was a tub-like area to hold you against heel, with a winch alongside; you could use both hands to tail while winding with the legs. A practical layout sounds complex, though, and the typical "duck down to leeward, wind half an inch more sheet and then run back to windward" move would probably be a bit of a PITA. On 50+ footers a "cycling station" could probably be tucked in somewhere, but then there's the cost and hassle of connection and switching systems.

    Personally I think a lot of this gets back to the fact that in a popular participant sport, the marquee event should be in gear that is fairly similar to the mass-market gear. It's hard to see a cycling setup working particularly well in the 2020 Beneteau 40 cruiser/racer when bouncing around off Sydney Heads, short tacking up the Solent shoreline, or gently lolling around for a gin and tonic cruise. On most of those boats you're not really running out of grinding power very often.

    To use the cycling analogy, we all know that a streamlined 'bent is much more efficient, and that riding downhill is much faster - but that doesn't meant that cycling would be a healthier sport if it was raced on streamlined trikes that started at the top of Alpe d'Huez and went down instead of up. The simplicity and all-round convenience of the UCI double triangle style is surely one major reason why cycling is the #1 equipment-intensive sport and racing sport in most of the major sailing countries, so why not follow that model?

    On a different note, I wonder how the general public will take to the idea of people pumping up pressure in accumulators, rather than using winches to pull in sails. Will they think it all appears to be a bit odd and hard to relate to? The concept of winches and ropes was visible and easy to grasp; accumulators less so. It's hard to know, because there's been surprisingly little work on the effect of technological development on the popularity and perception of sports.
     
  9. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Guess I was looking at it from more of a 'catamaran point of view' (level sailing....ha...ha)

    Long ago I thought perhaps a single big coffee grinder located aft on centerline could substitute for two or more big winches at port and stb when handling my twin headsail rig. (and I'm probable thinking of one of those coffee grinders where the drum is located up high, and somewhat separated from the pedestal itself).

    Now what if the big centerline coffee grinder was cycle-pedal operated. And what if I could store some energy in it for later use, rather than having to 'grind/pedal' it in right at the very moment I needed to use that winch.

    Aren't there 2 advantages to these pedal powered winches?
    1) stronger leg power and leverage
    2) energy storage
     
  10. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  12. schakel
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    schakel environmental project Msc

    You know what happened to Franck Gammas when he perfomed that trick?
    Allmost lost his feet. When the sharp foils or rudders grabs your ankle or even worse, arm, leg, spine or head the shearforce is capable of cutting through.
    Knock on wood not more of these accidents happens.
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready


  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    35th America's Cup on Foils---Oracle

    Oracle AC 49.2:

    [​IMG]
     
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