3500 migrants a year drowning in the Med is unacceptable. It's action time!

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Stephen Ditmore, Jan 23, 2016.

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  1. kostisoutback
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    kostisoutback Junior Member

    And the Russians are looking for an opportunity. At the end of the day as a proposal it is stupid because people will suffer either way
  2. Nnnnnnnn
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    Nnnnnnnn Junior Member

    Just for the sake of curiosity: What opportunity is Russians looking for? Return gold crosses on Aya Sofya?
  3. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    I am okay with that.
  4. Westel
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    Westel Senior Member

    I prefer a gold cross over a half moon....but that's just me :D:D
  5. Jamie Kennedy
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    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member


    For preventing the children of poor people in Ireland, from being a
    burden on their parents or country, and for making them beneficial to
    the publick.

    by Dr. Jonathan Swift


    It is a melancholy object to those, who walk through this great town,
    or travel in the country, when they see the streets, the roads and
    cabbin-doors crowded with beggars of the female sex, followed by three,
    four, or six children, all in rags, and importuning every passenger for
    an alms. These mothers instead of being able to work for their honest
    livelihood, are forced to employ all their time in stroling to beg
    sustenance for their helpless infants who, as they grow up, either turn
    thieves for want of work, or leave their dear native country, to fight
    for the Pretender in Spain, or sell themselves to the Barbadoes.

    I think it is agreed by all parties, that this prodigious number of
    children in the arms, or on the backs, or at the heels of their mothers,
    and frequently of their fathers, is in the present deplorable state of
    the kingdom, a very great additional grievance; and therefore whoever
    could find out a fair, cheap and easy method of making these children
    sound and useful members of the common-wealth, would deserve so well of
    the publick, as to have his statue set up for a preserver of the nation.

    But my intention is very far from being confined to provide only for the
    children of professed beggars: it is of a much greater extent, and shall
    take in the whole number of infants at a certain age, who are born of
    parents in effect as little able to support them, as those who demand
    our charity in the streets.

    As to my own part, having turned my thoughts for many years, upon this
    important subject, and maturely weighed the several schemes of
    our projectors, I have always found them grossly mistaken in their
    computation. It is true, a child just dropt from its dam, may be
    supported by her milk, for a solar year, with little other nourishment:
    at most not above the value of two shillings, which the mother may
    certainly get, or the value in scraps, by her lawful occupation of
    begging; and it is exactly at one year old that I propose to provide for
    them in such a manner, as, instead of being a charge upon their parents,
    or the parish, or wanting food and raiment for the rest of their lives,
    they shall, on the contrary, contribute to the feeding, and partly to
    the cloathing of many thousands.

    There is likewise another great advantage in my scheme, that it will
    prevent those voluntary abortions, and that horrid practice of
    women murdering their ******* children, alas! too frequent among us,
    sacrificing the poor innocent babes, I doubt, more to avoid the expence
    than the shame, which would move tears and pity in the most savage and
    inhuman breast.

    The number of souls in this kingdom being usually reckoned one million
    and a half, of these I calculate there may be about two hundred thousand
    couple whose wives are breeders; from which number I subtract thirty
    thousand couple, who are able to maintain their own children, (although
    I apprehend there cannot be so many, under the present distresses of
    the kingdom) but this being granted, there will remain an hundred and
    seventy thousand breeders. I again subtract fifty thousand, for those
    women who miscarry, or whose children die by accident or disease within
    the year. There only remain an hundred and twenty thousand children of
    poor parents annually born. The question therefore is, How this number
    shall be reared, and provided for? which, as I have already said, under
    the present situation of affairs, is utterly impossible by all the
    methods hitherto proposed. For we can neither employ them in handicraft
    or agriculture; we neither build houses, (I mean in the country) nor
    cultivate land: they can very seldom pick up a livelihood by stealing
    till they arrive at six years old; except where they are of towardly
    parts, although I confess they learn the rudiments much earlier;
    during which time they can however be properly looked upon only as
    probationers: As I have been informed by a principal gentleman in the
    county of Cavan, who protested to me, that he never knew above one or
    two instances under the age of six, even in a part of the kingdom so
    renowned for the quickest proficiency in that art.

    I am assured by our merchants, that a boy or a girl before twelve years
    old, is no saleable commodity, and even when they come to this age, they
    will not yield above three pounds, or three pounds and half a crown
    at most, on the exchange; which cannot turn to account either to the
    parents or kingdom, the charge of nutriments and rags having been at
    least four times that value.

    I shall now therefore humbly propose my own thoughts, which I hope will
    not be liable to the least objection.

    I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in
    London, that a young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a
    most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted,
    baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a
    fricasie, or a ragoust.

    I do therefore humbly offer it to publick consideration, that of the
    hundred and twenty thousand children, already computed, twenty thousand
    may be reserved for breed, whereof only one fourth part to be males;
    which is more than we allow to sheep, black cattle, or swine, and my
    reason is, that these children are seldom the fruits of marriage, a
    circumstance not much regarded by our savages, therefore, one male will
    be sufficient to serve four females. That the remaining hundred thousand
    may, at a year old, be offered in sale to the persons of quality and
    fortune, through the kingdom, always advising the mother to let them
    suck plentifully in the last month, so as to render them plump, and fat
    for a good table. A child will make two dishes at an entertainment for
    friends, and when the family dines alone, the fore or hind quarter will
    make a reasonable dish, and seasoned with a little pepper or salt, will
    be very good boiled on the fourth day, especially in winter.

    I have reckoned upon a medium, that a child just born will weigh 12
    pounds, and in a solar year, if tolerably nursed, encreaseth to 28

    I grant this food will be somewhat dear, and therefore very proper for
    landlords, who, as they have already devoured most of the parents, seem
    to have the best title to the children.

    Infant's flesh will be in season throughout the year, but more plentiful
    in March, and a little before and after; for we are told by a grave
    author, an eminent French physician, that fish being a prolifick dyet,
    there are more children born in Roman Catholick countries about nine
    months after Lent, the markets will be more glutted than usual, because
    the number of Popish infants, is at least three to one in this kingdom,
    and therefore it will have one other collateral advantage, by lessening
    the number of Papists among us.

    I have already computed the charge of nursing a beggar's child (in which
    list I reckon all cottagers, labourers, and four-fifths of the farmers)
    to be about two shillings per annum, rags included; and I believe no
    gentleman would repine to give ten shillings for the carcass of a good
    fat child, which, as I have said, will make four dishes of excellent
    nutritive meat, when he hath only some particular friend, or his
    own family to dine with him. Thus the squire will learn to be a good
    landlord, and grow popular among his tenants, the mother will have eight
    shillings neat profit, and be fit for work till she produces another

    Those who are more thrifty (as I must confess the times require) may
    flea the carcass; the skin of which, artificially dressed, will make
    admirable gloves for ladies, and summer boots for fine gentlemen.

    As to our City of Dublin, shambles may be appointed for this purpose, in
    the most convenient parts of it, and butchers we may be assured will not
    be wanting; although I rather recommend buying the children alive, and
    dressing them hot from the knife, as we do roasting pigs.

    A very worthy person, a true lover of his country, and whose virtues
    I highly esteem, was lately pleased, in discoursing on this matter, to
    offer a refinement upon my scheme. He said, that many gentlemen of this
    kingdom, having of late destroyed their deer, he conceived that the
    want of venison might be well supply'd by the bodies of young lads and
    maidens, not exceeding fourteen years of age, nor under twelve; so great
    a number of both sexes in every country being now ready to starve for
    want of work and service: And these to be disposed of by their parents
    if alive, or otherwise by their nearest relations. But with due
    deference to so excellent a friend, and so deserving a patriot, I
    cannot be altogether in his sentiments; for as to the males, my American
    acquaintance assured me from frequent experience, that their flesh was
    generally tough and lean, like that of our school-boys, by continual
    exercise, and their taste disagreeable, and to fatten them would not
    answer the charge. Then as to the females, it would, I think, with
    humble submission, be a loss to the publick, because they soon would
    become breeders themselves: And besides, it is not improbable that some
    scrupulous people might be apt to censure such a practice, (although
    indeed very unjustly) as a little bordering upon cruelty, which, I
    confess, hath always been with me the strongest objection against any
    project, how well soever intended.

    But in order to justify my friend, he confessed, that this expedient
    was put into his head by the famous Salmanaazor, a native of the island
    Formosa, who came from thence to London, above twenty years ago, and in
    conversation told my friend, that in his country, when any young person
    happened to be put to death, the executioner sold the carcass to persons
    of quality, as a prime dainty; and that, in his time, the body of a
    plump girl of fifteen, who was crucified for an attempt to poison the
    Emperor, was sold to his imperial majesty's prime minister of state, and
    other great mandarins of the court in joints from the gibbet, at four
    hundred crowns. Neither indeed can I deny, that if the same use were
    made of several plump young girls in this town, who without one single
    groat to their fortunes, cannot stir abroad without a chair, and appear
    at a play-house and assemblies in foreign fineries which they never will
    pay for; the kingdom would not be the worse.

    Some persons of a desponding spirit are in great concern about that vast
    number of poor people, who are aged, diseased, or maimed; and I have
    been desired to employ my thoughts what course may be taken, to ease
    the nation of so grievous an incumbrance. But I am not in the least pain
    upon that matter, because it is very well known, that they are every day
    dying, and rotting, by cold and famine, and filth, and vermin, as fast
    as can be reasonably expected. And as to the young labourers, they
    are now in almost as hopeful a condition. They cannot get work, and
    consequently pine away from want of nourishment, to a degree, that if
    at any time they are accidentally hired to common labour, they have not
    strength to perform it, and thus the country and themselves are happily
    delivered from the evils to come.

    I have too long digressed, and therefore shall return to my subject. I
    think the advantages by the proposal which I have made are obvious and
    many, as well as of the highest importance.

    For first, as I have already observed, it would greatly lessen the
    number of Papists, with whom we are yearly over-run, being the principal
    breeders of the nation, as well as our most dangerous enemies, and who
    stay at home on purpose with a design to deliver the kingdom to the
    Pretender, hoping to take their advantage by the absence of so many good
    Protestants, who have chosen rather to leave their country, than stay at
    home and pay tithes against their conscience to an episcopal curate.

    Secondly, The poorer tenants will have something valuable of their own,
    which by law may be made liable to a distress, and help to pay their
    landlord's rent, their corn and cattle being already seized, and money a
    thing unknown.

    Thirdly, Whereas the maintainance of an hundred thousand children,
    from two years old, and upwards, cannot be computed at less than
    ten shillings a piece per annum, the nation's stock will be thereby
    encreased fifty thousand pounds per annum, besides the profit of a
    new dish, introduced to the tables of all gentlemen of fortune in the
    kingdom, who have any refinement in taste. And the money will circulate
    among our selves, the goods being entirely of our own growth and

    Fourthly, The constant breeders, besides the gain of eight shillings
    sterling per annum by the sale of their children, will be rid of the
    charge of maintaining them after the first year.

    Fifthly, This food would likewise bring great custom to taverns,
    where the vintners will certainly be so prudent as to procure the best
    receipts for dressing it to perfection; and consequently have their
    houses frequented by all the fine gentlemen, who justly value themselves
    upon their knowledge in good eating; and a skilful cook, who understands
    how to oblige his guests, will contrive to make it as expensive as they

    Sixthly, This would be a great inducement to marriage, which all wise
    nations have either encouraged by rewards, or enforced by laws and
    penalties. It would encrease the care and tenderness of mothers towards
    their children, when they were sure of a settlement for life to the
    poor babes, provided in some sort by the publick, to their annual profit
    instead of expence. We should soon see an honest emulation among the
    married women, which of them could bring the fattest child to the
    market. Men would become as fond of their wives, during the time of
    their pregnancy, as they are now of their mares in foal, their cows in
    calf, or sow when they are ready to farrow; nor offer to beat or kick
    them (as is too frequent a practice) for fear of a miscarriage.

    Many other advantages might be enumerated. For instance, the addition
    of some thousand carcasses in our exportation of barrel'd beef: the
    propagation of swine's flesh, and improvement in the art of making good
    bacon, so much wanted among us by the great destruction of pigs,
    too frequent at our tables; which are no way comparable in taste or
    magnificence to a well grown, fat yearly child, which roasted whole will
    make a considerable figure at a Lord Mayor's feast, or any other publick
    entertainment. But this, and many others, I omit, being studious of

    Supposing that one thousand families in this city, would be constant
    customers for infants flesh, besides others who might have it at merry
    meetings, particularly at weddings and christenings, I compute that
    Dublin would take off annually about twenty thousand carcasses; and the
    rest of the kingdom (where probably they will be sold somewhat cheaper)
    the remaining eighty thousand.

    I can think of no one objection, that will possibly be raised against
    this proposal, unless it should be urged, that the number of people will
    be thereby much lessened in the kingdom. This I freely own, and 'twas
    indeed one principal design in offering it to the world. I desire the
    reader will observe, that I calculate my remedy for this one individual
    Kingdom of Ireland, and for no other that ever was, is, or, I think,
    ever can be upon Earth. Therefore let no man talk to me of other
    expedients: Of taxing our absentees at five shillings a pound: Of using
    neither cloaths, nor houshold furniture, except what is of our
    own growth and manufacture: Of utterly rejecting the materials and
    instruments that promote foreign luxury: Of curing the expensiveness of
    pride, vanity, idleness, and gaming in our women: Of introducing a vein
    of parsimony, prudence and temperance: Of learning to love our
    country, wherein we differ even from Laplanders, and the inhabitants
    of Topinamboo: Of quitting our animosities and factions, nor acting any
    longer like the Jews, who were murdering one another at the very moment
    their city was taken: Of being a little cautious not to sell our country
    and consciences for nothing: Of teaching landlords to have at least one
    degree of mercy towards their tenants. Lastly, of putting a spirit of
    honesty, industry, and skill into our shop-keepers, who, if a resolution
    could now be taken to buy only our native goods, would immediately unite
    to cheat and exact upon us in the price, the measure, and the goodness,
    nor could ever yet be brought to make one fair proposal of just dealing,
    though often and earnestly invited to it.

    Therefore I repeat, let no man talk to me of these and the like
    expedients, 'till he hath at least some glympse of hope, that there will
    ever be some hearty and sincere attempt to put them into practice.

    But, as to my self, having been wearied out for many years with offering
    vain, idle, visionary thoughts, and at length utterly despairing of
    success, I fortunately fell upon this proposal, which, as it is wholly
    new, so it hath something solid and real, of no expence and little
    trouble, full in our own power, and whereby we can incur no danger
    in disobliging England. For this kind of commodity will not bear
    exportation, and flesh being of too tender a consistence, to admit a
    long continuance in salt, although perhaps I could name a country, which
    would be glad to eat up our whole nation without it.

    After all, I am not so violently bent upon my own opinion, as to reject
    any offer, proposed by wise men, which shall be found equally innocent,
    cheap, easy, and effectual. But before something of that kind shall be
    advanced in contradiction to my scheme, and offering a better, I desire
    the author or authors will be pleased maturely to consider two points.
    First, As things now stand, how they will be able to find food and
    raiment for a hundred thousand useless mouths and backs. And secondly,
    There being a round million of creatures in humane figure throughout
    this kingdom, whose whole subsistence put into a common stock, would
    leave them in debt two million of pounds sterling, adding those who are
    beggars by profession, to the bulk of farmers, cottagers and labourers,
    with their wives and children, who are beggars in effect; I desire
    those politicians who dislike my overture, and may perhaps be so bold
    to attempt an answer, that they will first ask the parents of these
    mortals, whether they would not at this day think it a great happiness
    to have been sold for food at a year old, in the manner I prescribe, and
    thereby have avoided such a perpetual scene of misfortunes, as they have
    since gone through, by the oppression of landlords, the impossibility of
    paying rent without money or trade, the want of common sustenance, with
    neither house nor cloaths to cover them from the inclemencies of the
    weather, and the most inevitable prospect of intailing the like, or
    greater miseries, upon their breed for ever.

    I profess, in the sincerity of my heart, that I have not the least
    personal interest in endeavouring to promote this necessary work, having
    no other motive than the publick good of my country, by advancing
    our trade, providing for infants, relieving the poor, and giving some
    pleasure to the rich. I have no children, by which I can propose to
    get a single penny; the youngest being nine years old, and my wife past
  6. Nnnnnnnn
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    Nnnnnnnn Junior Member

    You are hidden russian orthodox!

  7. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

  8. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    I am starting to wonder if this a boat forum.
  9. Rurudyne
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    Rurudyne Senior Member

    A great tragedy of boats is that most of us who want to spend leisure time on them have to usually be on land.
  10. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    So why does this crap have to on a boat design forum. Don't they have political forums on the net.
  11. Rurudyne
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    Rurudyne Senior Member

    As I wrote earlier, the thread idea may involve boats but they, their construction and safe use, are actually not related to any solution that may or may not be pending.

    That makes it inherently political.

    When I first waded in I expressed my gratitude that no one had opined we give the refugees AKs and ammo and send them back to fix where they came from ... only to have that suggestion appear a few post later.

    Right now I'm thinking the only "answer" (these people wanting to come no matter what others may want) may be to let the cruise lines get involved under strict regulation. Not necessarily undercut the prices of the people smugglers but offer much more for the money, give the smuggled a much more pleasant journey. They would be responsible to adequately document every passenger, biometrics and such, as well as perform blood test for diseases. There should be a suitable quarantine option when necessary, still with nice food, clean rooms, TVs, things to do, and toilets (maybe introduction to the use of same if necessary).

    In short: expose the smugglers to market forces by letting the refugees have a good choice instead of only bad.

    ... and I fully realize that the odds of that happening is virtually nil.
  12. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    Thats all well and good but is this the right forum for this discussion.
  13. Rurudyne
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    Rurudyne Senior Member

    Myself, I kinda try to keep politics far away. Though of course as one who looooves talking politics, or religion, and who has been known to write walls'o'text it's sometimes hard.

    Mind you, I have spawned at least one wall'o'text about organic rankine cycles a while back, and that's both almost political and almost religious depending on who might have responded. :)
  14. Westel
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    Westel Senior Member

    It are members of this forum who participate/create this thread so I would say....yes, is it the "most suited" forum to talk about this matter, probably not......however:D

    We (still) have the freedom to read or not read a thread and post or not post in that thread unless, being curious about what is written/expressed is stronger than the will to ignore it......in which case you're not guilty as charged :D

  15. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    Maybe this thread will be of use after all. I am trying to design a funeral barge for my ashes that will disintegrate in sea water and that seems to be the type smugglers quite often use. :D
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