34th America's Cup: multihulls!

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Sep 13, 2010.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    34th AC on Foils!

    =================
    Is your real name Chris Ostlind? Just asking.....
     
  2. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    But is mass market appeal the only way by which the value of a sport can be determined? People who are interested do remember moments in AC history. From the 12metre Australia II crossing the line and winning the cup to big bad DC's wingmasted cat winning easily over the huge kiwi monohull or the battles of the IACC years and the clash of the super multi's USA17 vs Alinghi V there have been lots of memorable moments in AC history. It might not appeal or make a lasting impression on as many people as football or Soccer but who says it has too?
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    34th AC on Foils! Viva Australia II !!!

    From Scuttlebutt tonight:

    ON THIS DAY IN HISTORY

    The date, 25 September 1983, remains vivid in the memories of Australians
    who watched - perched on the edge of their sofas, thrusting into the air
    punches of elation - as Australia II crossed the America's Cup finishing
    line at Newport, USA.

    It was one of those events where you can remember what you were doing at
    the precise moment they saw or heard the good news. And, it moved then
    Prime Minister Bob Hawke enough to famously declare: "Any boss who sacks
    anyone for not turning up today is a bum."

    Australians love the water, but yachting is not a spectator sport for the
    masses. Why then, did the win have such an enormous impact?

    John Bertrand, skipper of Australia II and now chairman of the Sport
    Australia Hall of Fame, says the many superb performances by Australians -
    notably Cathy Freeman's gold medal sprint in the Sydney Olympics and Kieran
    Perkins' win from lane 8 at the Atlanta Olympics - make it difficult to
    choose the ultimate achievement in Australian sporting history.

    "We broke 132 years of American domination in winning the America's Cup -
    we're proud of that!" says John.

    It was a glow that was shared by many in the country, and more people chose
    to become naturalised Australians shortly after the win, than ever before
    or since. John says; "People felt part of this country for the first time.
    Certainly there was a great injection of both pride and confidence into the
    country."

    What about the controversy surrounding the secret weapon that gave the
    Australian yacht its advantage over its American competitor - the upside
    down, winged keel?

    There has been a perennial argument over whether Australia II should have
    been disqualified because the rules specified that competing yachts had to
    be designed by residents or citizens of the country they represented. The
    Americans alleged, but couldn't prove, the boat was not
    Australian-designed. Then, in 2009, Dutch boat designer Peter van Oossanen
    claimed Australian II designer, Ben Lexcen, had minimal involvement in the
    keel's design, and a Dutch team were the true designers.

    John claims it's a technicality. "Success has many fathers; failure has
    none," he says. "To win the Cup required a great deal of work by many
    people, but in terms of any controversy, the key was [that] Ben Lexcen was
    the chief designer. So under the rules, Australia II was totally legal. Of
    course, the America's Cup rules now don't even consider nationality."

    Today, Australia II calls home the Western Australian Maritime Museum in
    Fremantle.

    Source
    : Australian Geographic, http://tinyurl.com/AG-092412
    ==================
    CORRECTION
    We have learned the report by Australian Geographic in Scuttlebutt 3683 was
    in error, as esteemed yachting journalist Bob Fisher reports: "The day that
    Australia II took the Cup was 26th September 1983 (and not the 25th). Those
    of us who were there will never forget the date. As for the 'Ben didn't
    design the keel' lobby - I discussed this phenomenon with him when we were
    shipmates aboard the 48ft More Opposition in 1976, and I will admit to no
    surprise when I learned of the configuration of Australia II's keel seven
    years later."
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  4. Roger Six
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    Roger Six Surge Protector

    Excellent set of questions, Corley. Mass market appeal is not the only way to determine value. It's simply one component of measuring appeal in a broad sense. I presented the argument in this fashion because some of these discussions can get pretty self-indulgent and it's good to, every once in awhile, bring it all back down to a relevant understanding in the bigger picture.

    I have no doubt that some of the races have created lasting memories for some people. Reaching back to the AC's I have seen on TV, there are sensations I remember, but only a few precise details. I attribute that to simply not being immersed in the genre that deeply at the time, or finding the racing boring because I was into beach cats back then and the monos were slow and sorta boring because of the relative movement disparity.

    The key that forms a memory of the type of which you speak, is to be connected directly to the genre somehow. Most folks worldwide, are not even sailors, much less enamored, so the global interest potential is only so big to begin with. It's always good to freshen up a perspective every so often.

    I'm not making these comments to stir-up trouble (well, maybe a little bit, but it's not malicious) I'm more just poking a fork into an overcooked topic to let some of the air out of it so that it has relevance once again.
     
  5. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Do you happen to know whether Tom Schnackenberg was a Australian citizen at that time. He was part of the design team. Or was he a KIWI.

    :D :D:( ;) ;)
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    34th AC on Foils!

    Here is an idea that would allow the TNZ "V" configuration to work w/o the lift to leeward of my original idea, assuming there is enough area:

    Rough Sketches: Left-original concept based on pictures of TNZ, Right- revised idea where the inboard tip is oriented to zero angle of incidence and develops no lift. This allows the foil to still act as a surface piercing foil with the advantage of automatic altitude control and no lift to leeward.

    click-
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    34th AC on Foils!

    from Scuttlebutt tonight:
    Team Korea--

    THIS KID'S GOT GAME

    Peter Burling may be 21 years old and the youngest skipper in the America's
    Cup arena, but he arrives with a wealth of knowledge that belies his age -
    he's already an Olympic silver medalist and a two-time world champion.

    "All the yachting I do, I'm always the youngest, it doesn't bother me
    anymore," says Burling, a tall and soft-spoken New Zealander. "It's always
    been that way, I just go with it."

    Burling began sailing at the age of 8 when his dad bought a boat for him
    and his brother. By the age of 11 Burling had jumped into the Optimist
    class, the largest youth trainer in the world, and finished second at the
    New Zealand Nationals after winning the first two races of the regatta. He
    returned a year later to win the national championship, his first title.

    From the Optimist he moved on to the International 420, a two-person
    dinghy, and won with skipper Carl Evans his first world championship by the
    age of 15. A year later they were repeat champions.

    On the fast path to success, Burling and Evans represented New Zealand in
    the 470 class at the 2008 Beijing Olympics. They placed 11th in a hastily
    prepared campaign, but it was a great learning experience for Burling who
    switched to the 49er Class after the 2008 Games. Now a skipper, he won the
    silver medal at the London Olympics, a medal he had wrapped up before the
    medal race finale.

    "You obviously learn a lot from every event you do, but the Olympics are
    certainly special. They only happen every four years and they are what
    everyone's trying to aim at, so it was nice to have been there before (in
    2008) and seen how it all works," says Burling. "Most of my youth boats
    through to the 470 were all pretty similar, but the 49er is a different
    beast and it took a while to get used to sailing it. We've done all right,
    though."

    Burling is hoping that success carries over to the AC45 for Team Korea.
    Given his pedigree in the 49er Class, he might be well suited for the role.
    Burling follows Nathan Outteridge in the helmsman's role for Team Korea,
    whom he also happened to follow onto the medal stand at the Olympic
    Regatta. Outteridge and Burling were training partners leading up to the
    Games.

    "It's a bit annoying that we're always stepping where [Nathan's] been
    before us, but he's set a high bar for the team," Burling says. "I'm
    looking forward to a bit of racing."
    -- http://tinyurl.com/ACUP-092512
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    34th AC on Foils

    Man, have I found some interesting stuff! I'm posting it in the TNZ thread because they have flown their 72. Most people are familiar with the fact that things change when you scale up a boat. This just blows my mind:
    Moth=66lb + 175 lb crew; SA= 86 sq.ft.. So, Weight(241lb.)/ SA(86sq.ft.)=2.8lb per sq.ft. SA.
    Hydroptere=15000lb+875crew; SA=6034 sq.ft. So Weight(15875lb)/ 6034sq.ft.=2.63 lb.per sq.ft.!!!!!! Hydropteres flying SA from their website. It is phenominally incredible that Hydropteres Sail loading is less than a Moth! But the interesting thing is there is hardly any change due to scale!!
    http://hydroptere.com/en/the-sailing-boats/specifications/
    ========
    Now for the really, really interesting part:
    Estimated TNZ weight 5700kg=12540lb+(8X175 crew?)=13940lb(2000lb lighter than Hydroptere!)
    Wing Area=2797 sq.ft. + 3500(other sails downwind guess)=6297sq. ft.( slightly more than Hydroptere)
    So Weight(13940lb.)/ SA(6297 sq.ft)= 2.21lb. per sq.ft. Sail Loading!!!!! Absolutely incredible-better than Hydroptere and better than a Moth.
    However, this is downwind SA on the big boats so when I get more accurate info on the jib size for the AC boats I'll take another look.
    ===============
    Another little tidbit we can all use to compare with TNZ and Oracle: Hydropteres wetted surface on foils is 2sq.m(21.5sq.ft) and therefore their Sail Area to Wetted Surface ratio(SA/ws) on foils is 6297(est)/21.5= 292.8/1 !!!!!! Just look up a normal SA/ws ratio and you will see how incredible this is. A Moth is about 13/1 on foils! A normal lead belly is 2 or so to 1........

    --------------------
    More info from the Hydroptere site. When you read it be sure to remember that the TNZ crew estimated(on their first day) that they were doing 40 knots in a 20 knot wind:

    Speed(Hydroptere)
    Wind speed required to take off: 12 knots stabilized

    Speed of the boat: About twice the wind speed (she sails at 30 knots with 15 knots of established wind)

    Maximum speed: 56 knots (= 104 km/h = 65 mi/h)

    Maximum average speed: 50.17 knots on one nautical mile (outright speed record = 93 km/h = 58 mi/h)
     
  10. petereng
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    petereng Senior Member

    I wouln't say that the AC72's are revolutionary but evolutionary. Multihulls, Wingsails and foils have been done for over 30 years. It has just come to time that various factors have fallen into place that they happen now. Australia 2 was hailed as revolutionary but all monos don't carry winged keels today. It was a short term fad. Foils will not be on every sailboat soon! Foils were popular on commercial power boats and ferries for a while as well, but ultimately they proved to be uneconomical and speedy catamarans have taken their place. Doug its unlikely that the sytems in place to trim the AC's will be used, they are likely to be electronic in nature and quite difficult to commercialise, just like the current state of the art wings. They are not robust and are certainly unfriendly. But it does open the door to other development that will filter through to general sailing. It may open the door to a whole bunch of new thinkers and doers that allow sailing to leap frog to new possibilities. On the other had if a defender wins we naybe back to monos pronto!! Whatever happens the current mould is broken and we can get on with where multis should have been about 100 years ago. Peter
     
  11. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    if they werent scared of breaking the boat, i dare say NZ`s AC72 could easily attempt a speed record attempt with a good chance of bettering hydroptere`s... they should have less drag from the wing sail, and probably less windage too, less weight, more power etc... all the numbers certainly add up to some scary numbers if they really decided to open her up in a 30kt blow...
     
  12. petereng
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    petereng Senior Member

    Agreed, on paper any of the AC72's should beat Hydros 38knts over 200m or 500m? Cheers Peter S
     
  13. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Hello petereng, what's this 38 knots over 200m nonsense. If you're going to rabbit on, do a little research before sounding off.
     
  14. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Gary, I think they are refering to the record that Hydroptere set in San Francisco not the outright Hydroptere records. If you look at the hull volumes in Hydroptere and the AC72 I doubt there is much more weight in Hydroptere. True it's a wider boat but the hulls are quite small and low volume it's a product of a long development cycle. The extra beam should equal more power. The Hydroptere team have mentioned they want to go after 65knots as a record they obviously feel the platform has more in it or some more cards up their sleeve? In the end very different platforms for very different purposes but the comparison is interesting.
     

  15. petereng
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    petereng Senior Member

    OK I looked it up it was 37.5 nts for a nautical mile. 31st Aug 2012. They also did 51knts over a short distance last year and I havn't looked up the distance if thats the one Mr Baigent is thinking of... Cheers Peter S
     
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