34th America's Cup: multihulls!

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Sep 13, 2010.

  1. andybrnr
    Joined: Dec 2012
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    andybrnr Junior Member

    Oracle seemed to command this one pretty well... talk about a momentum shift.
  2. daiquiri
    Joined: May 2004
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    Frankly, I can't wait this Ac is over, so that Tom Speer can tell us what changes did the Oracle perform to their boat, since it looks like a completely different animal respect to what it was less than a month ago... :)
    Surely a big merit for this change goes to the crew and the coaching staff, since it looks like they have learned how to sail it in a much more efficient way in the last 4-5 races...
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    34th AC

    Great cartoon from Mark O'Brien:


    Attached Files:

  4. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    34th AC

    I think it is 97.5% time on the boat. But the talking heads said Oracle dropped their inboard foil tip* which should have added some speed but also made it a bit harder to control. It doesn't look harder to control, though. Can't wait to hear all the facts-if we ever do.....
    * Made the angle between the "L" and the daggerboard obtuse as opposed to acute.
    Slavi, watch the designers cocktail hour in the LAC thread-I guarantee you'll
    learn something-I sure did......
  5. powerabout
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    powerabout Senior Member

    simple, they put a wing keel on ( maybe) and it befuddled the opposition whether it made the boat go faster is besides the point
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    34th AC

    Geez, when they postponed I went back to work leaving the sound on-thinking all the time they were showing yesterdays race. You mean I missed the Race??!! And we won! I can't believe it. No more trying to do four things at once. I thought they needed me watching to win? Damn.
  7. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Great TV coverage on ABC this morning showing Oracle winning, then zooming past the spectators merely feet from the shore. Wonderful spectacle, with the crowds cheering.
    Despite all the vitriol and negativity expressed on this thread I think this is the most exciting AC since the nail biting one in 1983. :D
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    34th AC

    Well said Paddy! I can't believe I worked thru todays race-just went back and watched it. Oracle found lite air speed -I was surprised.
  9. tom28571
    Joined: Dec 2001
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    tom28571 Senior Member

    Wipe away all that stuff and we are left with the most exiting sailing event ever. Don't think about the egomaniacs and lawyers and the sailors and designers have and are doing a great job if it. Who would have given Oracle a prayer a few days ago. Now,it seems incredibly possible that they could actually do the impossible and win this thing. I have gone from feeling bad for the Oracle crew to the reverse and feeling a bit sad for the Kiwis. Still, it is probably in favor of the Kiwis because Oracle cannot afford even a small mistake.
  10. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    America’s Cup Final schedule

    Looking at the race data below, it is now difficult to see where that one win the Kiwis need is going to come from.

    Race 14 Performance Data.

    Course: 5 Legs/10.22 nautical miles
    Elapsed Time: OTUSA – 33:47, ETNZ – 34:10
    Delta: OTUSA +:23
    Total distance sailed: OTUSA – 12.8 NM, ETNZ – 13.1 NM
    Average Speed: OTUSA – 23.31 knots (27 mph), ETNZ – 22.58 knots (26 mph)
    Top Speed: OTUSA – 36.60 knots (42 mph), ETNZ – 35.41 knots (41 mph)
    Windspeed: Average – 11.4 knots, Peak – 14.9 knots
    Number of Tacks/Jibes: OTUSA – 8/12, ETNZ – 8/12

    Race 15 Performance Data.

    Course: 5 Legs/10.22 nautical miles
    Elapsed Time: OTUSA – 27:34, ETNZ – 28:11
    Delta: OTUSA +:37
    Total distance sailed: OTUSA – 12.0 NM, ETNZ – 11.9 NM
    Average Speed: OTUSA – 26.23 knots (30 mph), ETNZ – 25.40 knots (29 mph)
    Top Speed: OTUSA – 41.80 knots (48 mph), ETNZ – 40.35 knots (46 mph)
    Windspeed: Average – 12.9 knots, Peak – 18.0 knots
    Number of Tacks/Jibes: OTUSA – 7/7, ETNZ – 7/9

    Race 16 Performance Data

    Course: 5 Legs/10.21 nautical miles
    Elapsed Time: OTUSA – 30:43, ETNZ – 31:16
    Delta: OTUSA +:33
    Total distance sailed: OTUSA – 11.8 NM, ETNZ – 11.7 NM
    Average Speed: OTUSA – 23.21 knots (27 mph), ETNZ – 22.46 knots (26 mph)
    Top Speed: OTUSA – 38.05 knots (44 mph), ETNZ – 36.61 knots (42 mph)
    Windspeed: Average – 12.0 knots, Peak – 14.1 knots
    Number of Tacks/Jibes: OTUSA – 10/10, ETNZ – 10/10

    There was no time left to get a second race started before the 2.40pm cut-off and we are forward again glued to the TV tomorrow afternoon tuesday San Fransico Times now.

    Do the race organizers have to be home by 1500 hrs, Time zone 17 , to have their cocoa with warm milk and afternoon naps. Is that why the time limit was set?

    The races are averaging about 28 mins a race in light airs.

    Surely 10 or 14 mins extension can be tolerated.

    Well you could not organise a final nail bitting race for tv on Wednesday when both boats will be on 8-8 points each.

    ENTZ 8 Race Wins Oracle 10 race wins.

    America’s Cup Final schedule :::

    •Tuesday, Sept 24: Race 17 (1:15 pm PT), Race 18* (2:15 pm PT)
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    34th AC

    One little mistake in light air: if Jimmy had lost the start it would have been hard for Oracle to pass in those conditions. Thankfully, tomorrow is forcast to have good wind and even if Jimmy loses the start he can pass TNZ.
    It's so exciting now it was almost a refief to have missed the race today and find out afterwards we had won-made watching the replay less stressful! But I won't let that happen again.....
  12. markdrela
    Joined: Jun 2004
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    markdrela Senior Member

    One thing I noticed in this relatively light-wind race is that Oracle had more foil-lift capability, possibly via more foil area. On the start Oracle went up on foil first which gave them the lead. On the last downwind leg when the wind picked up a bit Oracle stayed up on foil throughout most of their jybes, while TNZ wallowed a bit on the floats after the turn before getting back up on the foil. Compare the simultaneous jybes at 1:11:00 on this video:

    Does anyone know if the teams swap between small and big foils depending on the wind? If so, seemed like TNZ made a bad foil choice today.
  13. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Local date Monday, Sep 23 Tuesday, Sep 24

    Local time 02h 05h 08h 11h 14h 17h 20h 23h 02h 05h 08h 11h 14h 17h 20h 23h
    Wind direction 323 nw 325 nw 329 nnw 297 wnw 264 w 279 w 277 w 294 wnw 285 wnw 277 w 273 w 276 w 273 w 278 w 272 w 277 w
    Wind speed (kts) 7 6 6 5 9 14 6 7 7 6 6 9 15 16 9 9
    Wind gusts (kts) 9 8 7 7 9 16 8 9 9 8 8 12 15 20 19 20
    Wave direction 297 wnw 298 wnw 298 wnw 300 wnw 302 wnw 302 wnw 293 wnw 294 wnw 294 wnw 294 wnw 295 wnw 295 wnw 295 wnw 296 wnw 296 wnw 296 wnw
    Wave height (ft) 4.9 4.6 4.3 4.6 4.9 5.6 6.6 7.2 7.2 7.2 6.9 6.9 6.9 7.2 7.2 7.2
    Wave period (s) 10 10 10 10 10 10 15 14 14 14 14 14 14 13 13 13
    Cloud cover 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    Precipitation (mm/3h) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    Air pressure (hPa) 1015 1015 1016 1016 1015 1014 1015 1015 1015 1015 1015 1015 1014 1013 1013 1014
    Air temperature (°F) 59 59 62 73 78 77 66 62 60 57 59 68 73 69 60 57

    Local date Wednesday, Sep 25 Thursday, Sep 26

    Local time 02h 05h 08h 11h 14h 17h 20h 23h 02h 05h 08h 11h 14h 17h 20h 23h
    Wind direction 289 wnw 299 wnw 312 nw 309 nw 286 wnw 291 wnw 292 wnw 331 nnw 341 nnw 345 nnw 338 nnw 342 nnw 327 nnw 308 nw 318 nw 348 nnw
    Wind speed (kts) 8 9 10 12 15 17 9 9 7 7 6 8 9 10 8 9
    Wind gusts (kts) 16 16 15 15 16 19 19 12 8 8 8 13 14 14 11 13
    Wave direction 297 wnw 298 wnw 298 wnw 299 wnw 300 wnw 300 wnw 300 wnw 300 wnw 300 wnw 300 wnw 299 wnw 299 wnw 300 wnw 301 wnw 301 wnw 300 wnw
    Wave height (ft) 6.9 6.9 6.9 6.9 7.5 8.5 8.9 8.5 7.9 7.5 7.2 7.2 6.9 6.9 6.9 6.9
    Wave period (s) 13 13 13 13 12 12 12 12 11 11 11 10 10 10 10 10
    Cloud cover 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    Precipitation (mm/3h) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    Air pressure (hPa) 1014 1013 1013 1014 1012 1010 1010 1011 1011 1010 1012 1013 1011 1010 1011 1013
    Air temperature (°F) 55 55 55 66 69 68 59 57 55 53 57 69 77 77 64 62

    Local date Friday, Sep 27 Saturday, Sep 28

    Local time 02h 05h 08h 11h 14h 17h 20h 23h 02h 05h 08h 11h 14h 17h 20h 23h
    Wind direction 16 nne 26 nne 43 ne 39 ne 337 nnw 277 w 272 w 296 wnw 299 wnw 112 ese 69 ene 90 e 249 wsw 260 w 277 w 292 wnw
    Wind speed (kts) 8 7 5 7 4 9 6 3 1 2 2 2 3 7 5 4
    Wind gusts (kts) 25 21 7 13 7 9 7 4 1 2 3 2 3 7 6 5
    Wave direction 300 wnw 303 nw 304 nw 305 nw 306 nw 306 nw 305 nw 305 nw 305 nw 306 nw 305 nw 243 wsw 266 w 273 w 282 wnw 281 wnw
    Wave height (ft) 6.6 6.2 5.6 5.2 4.6 4.6 4.6 3.9 3.6 3.6 3.3 3.3 3.3 3.6 3.9 3.9
    Wave period (s) 10 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 15 15 15 14 14
    Cloud cover 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    Precipitation (mm/3h) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    Air pressure (hPa) 1013 1014 1016 1017 1015 1014 1015 1016 1016 1016 1016 1018 1016 1015 1016 1017
    Air temperature (°F) 60 59 59 73 78 77 64 60 57 55 60 75 80 78 66 62

    Local date Sunday, Sep 29 Monday, Sep 30

    Local time 02h 05h 08h 11h 14h 17h 20h 23h 02h 05h 08h 11h 14h 17h 20h 23h
    Wind direction 286 wnw 226 sw 261 w 243 wsw 242 wsw 255 wsw 277 w 296 wnw 283 wnw 288 wnw 299 wnw 268 w 255 wsw 263 w 276 w 288 wnw
    Wind speed (kts) 2 2 1 2 6 7 5 4 2 3 3 3 7 9 5 5
    Wind gusts (kts) 2 2 1 2 6 7 6 5 3 4 3 3 7 10 7 6
    Wave direction 286 wnw 286 wnw 285 wnw 287 wnw 287 wnw 286 wnw 286 wnw 285 wnw 283 wnw 283 wnw 288 wnw 291 wnw 0 n 0 n 0 n 0 n
    Wave height (ft) 3.9 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.6 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.6 4.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Wave period (s) 13 13 13 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12
    Cloud cover 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1
    Precipitation (mm/3h) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    Air pressure (hPa) 1017 1017 1018 1019 1018 1017 1018 1019 1019 1018 1019 1019 1017 1016 1016 1017
    Air temperature (°F) 59 57 60 75 82 78 64 60 57 55 60 73 80 77 64 60


    He was considered Team New Zealand's lucky charm earlier in the regatta, but team boss Grant Dalton has curiously been left out of the crew for the past four days of racing.

    Dalton was last on board Team NZ in their eighth win of the series in race 11, but has since been replaced by grinder Winston Macfarlane.

    Although just four races have been sailed since then, for the past few days Dalton has been absent from the crew lists that are released each morning before the day's racing.

    Team NZ skipper Dean Barker did not elaborate on the reasons Dalton has been left off the boat, but confirmed the syndicate head is not injured.

    "Grant's always believed in the ability to sub guys in and out," said Barker. "Winston does a very good job on there. He's obviously a very strong guy and brings a different element in more difficult conditions."

    The 56-year-old's absence over the past few days has led some to wonder whether Dalton has sacked himself from the crew. He has always maintained if he is not up to the task he will be the first one to put his hand up and say so. The punishing match schedule has become even more demanding in the past week, with organisers having run out of rest days.

    PS Opinion only.

    Could have had a mild heart attack at his age.


    34th America's Cup

    Oracle deny Team New Zealand once again It's getting desperate for Team NZ fans America's Cup recap: Team NZ vs Oracle Another day of disappointment at shed 10 Oracle Win Race 16 34th America's Cup Team NZ fans watch America's Cup Final battles of the americas cup No single factor in Oracle's renaissance Relevant offers America's Cup Team NZ dithering aids Oracle legal case It's getting desperate for Team NZ fans Longest America's Cup regatta on record Ellison talks big while Kiwis try to re-group Ainslie lauded by Oracle on bad day for Kiwis America's Cup recap: Team NZ vs Oracle Barker denies Team New Zealand is choking Punter puts $10k on Team NZ to lose More agony for Team NZ as Oracle wins again Kiwis struggle to watch as Oracle take two wins Team New Zealand have put their hands up for their second sail decision blunder in two days, a mistake that contributed massively to today's costly loss to Oracle as the America's Cup final tightened.

    Oracle got a massive jump on the Kiwis at the start line to leap out to a 5sec lead at the first mark and were never troubled as they claimed a 33sec victory to stay alive.'

    Team New Zealand lead 8-6, still needing one win to claim the cup, but they have been stuck in that position for six days now, with Oracle recording five consecutive victories in sudden-death scenarios.

    Anticipating lighter winds, Team New Zealand's decision to use a large code-zero sail up front as well as their jib back-fired, with the extra sheet acting as drag across the first short leg.

    Oracle, with less sail on, simply blasted away from them on that reach to set up a wire-to-wire win.

    The defenders didn't raise their code-zero sail until they were half way through the first downwind leg, hitting lighter airs, where it gave them enough edge to not only hold off the Kiwis but stretch their lead 13sec.

    Team New Zealand couldn't make any inroads and much of that must lie with their sail choice made before the start of the race.

    "You have to make a lot of decisions based on what you expect," skipper Dean Barker said, explaining that the breeze jumped on them.

    Clearly Oracle had anticipated that and found enough speed with their usual configuration to get to the mark one first and round it on their foils.

    "It didn't help but it wasn't the sole cause," Barker said, though he conceded, "they did a much better job accelerating off the line".

    Tactician Ray Davies added: "It was interesting timing of the weather system. It all came down to how much wind you had it at the first mark . . . they [Oracle] did that pretty well today.

    "They did a nice job of getting us compressed on the leeward end, they jumped us quickly and it was evident 15 seconds after the start that they were very strong."

    Yesterday Team New Zealand changed their jibs between races anticipating a building breeze that did not eventuate.

    These are costly mistakes and ones that Oracle's Jimmy Spithill has jumped on to help his run of success in the starting box where he has had an edge on the last four races.

    The Kiwis were maintaining their stoic stance despite not having won since last Thursday and having just one win in the last 10 days.

    "I still wouldn't trade positions," Barker said.

    "I'd still rather be on match point than have to win three more [like Oracle].

    "But it is definitely a battle. There is no question that the Oracle guys have stepped it up a lot. We need to be able to respond, we have obviously spent a lot of time talking about how we can do things better. We certainly aren't error-free, we have to improve ourselves.

  14. xarax

    xarax Previous Member

    Whoever wins this race, will win the Cup on the water. To me, he will be the real winner.
    I believe that the Oracle ground team was forced ( by the -8 outcome on the water ) to take risks, and to modify the boat in a then unpredictable way, which was proved to be beneficial for its speed upwind and its stability regarding pitching. They should had taken those risks and made those modifications before their last two defeats, at -6.

  15. basil
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    basil Senior Member

    I think Sail world answer a whole heap of questions why Team NZ are off the pace.

    Today's race was no change from yesterday. Oracle Team USA got the jump at the start in Race 16 and was never headed. The Defender crept to within three points of staging one of the great comebacks in world sporting history.

    As yesterday, nothing has changed for the Challenger, Emirates Team New Zealand, who remain locked on Match Point.

    Anguished New Zealand fans fall into two camps. Those who have been around competitive sailing for a while and realise that this is the way it is some times. Most wins are nerve wracking affairs, often decided at the death.

    For non-sailing fans, and particularly the non-sailing Kiwi Media, this is how it is sometimes in sailing. You can be so close, but so far. It is a matter of having the discipline and strength of character to hang in there. Blame-storming doesn't make the boat go faster.

    A rowing truism is the Potential – Errors equals Performance, and is a good starting point for evaluating different teams and their strengths.

    San Francisco
    34th America's Cup final
    Oracle Team USA vs Emirates Team New Zealand
    Race 16
    Luna Rossa/Carlo Borlenghi

    Currently both boats are very similar in Potential, but with different weaknesses. Oracle Team USA was making the Errors at the start of the regatta, Emirates Team NZ is making starting Errors in the latter stages of the regatta.

    That is the simple difference.

    Today's Error by Emirates Team NZ was hoisting the Code Zero before the start, in the belief that the wind was light enough to make it worthwhile on Leg 1. But that was not to be, and the additional drag from the furled sail was sufficient to allow Oracle Team USA to get foiling a few seconds sooner, which translated into a rare lead for the starboard entry boat at Mark 1. Oracle was never headed - and the speeds between the boats upwind and down were very comparable. The race was lost in the first 60 seconds, by one error.

    The framing of this regatta has changed dramatically from six months or so ago. Emirates Team NZ was originally designed for the 5-33kt wind limit. That set the basic design options and the boats had to be able to sail in a 28knot range of wind. Today that range dropped to just 9.9kts or so.

    Various decisions that were made after the Artemis incident saw the range drop to 18kts when the limits were set at 5-23kts.

    Russell Coutts and Larry Ellison have some Man-Love, Race Day 13 © ACEA / Photo Gilles Martin-Raget

    Then it was decided to factor in the strength of the tidal current. At its most extreme that has dropped the wind limit down to just 19.9kts on one day, and below the 23 kts range for most of the second week.

    Today, the decision was made by race officials that they would not start a race unless they were confident it would finish inside the 40 minute race time limit.

    On the surface that sounds reasonable enough, but as we saw earlier the race time limit is very short, and in the Race Committee's view is that a minimum strength seems to be 10kts.

    (Sail-World's calculations on Sunday, using Predictwind's routing function came to a similar conclusion – but about 8-9kts minimum windspeed to complete the course inside the time limit.)

    That is up from the 5kts minimum stated in the Protocol. The more usual practice is that if there is a wind above the minimum, and it is reasonably steady in direction, then the race is started and the progressive and total race time limits apply. No second-guessing by the race officials as to how long the race will take.

    Often the wind will increase after the start and the whole subject becomes academic. Today's decision to delay the start was also effectively a decision that there would be only one race today - and that is not really a decision for officials to make. It's an outcome best decided by the Elements and the Sailors.

    As we saw today, the 10kts limit is also right at the cut-over for Code Zero's. Below that the big headsails are necessary. Above that they are at best marginal. And when Emirates Team NZ flew theirs and Oracle Team USA did not, there was no perceivable difference between having the big headsail and not having it.

    Code Zero conditions are one area that Emirates Team NZ still had an advantage over the Defender, but with today's wind strength decision, that advantage has been effectively wiped, and we probably won't see those sails again in the regatta.

    So now the wind band has been tightened further to be in the range of 10kts to 19.9kts in an ebb tide condition.

    That's just a 9.9kts range – when the Protocol originally called for a 28kt range. That is what Emirates Team NZ originally designed their boat to sail in, and has in fact been sailed in conditions more extreme than that.

    Day 13 - the AC Heavyweight bout continues Monsta

    At the start of the Louis Vuitton Cup, back in July, the Defender gained access to all the Challenger performance data. They also gained access to all the video shot for the public broadcast. That is a huge analysis benefit, particularly when the Challengers don't have access to your video and performance data. That also allowed them to choreograph crew moves in the vital foiling gybes.

    Come the start of the America's Cup Match, the Defenders were clearly off the pace upwind, but seemed to have very good speed off the wind.

    Again by studying video and the performance data, Oracle Team USA were able to effect changes – which they are quite entitled to do. And, for the first time in the Regatta (aside from two races in the Defender Series) Emirates Team NZ were able to see the Defender video and data.

    So the long story short is that for whatever reason, these boats are now sailing a wind range of around 10kts instead of an initial 28kts. And they are also only sailing on a course when the wind is coming from a certain direction.

    It is a fair bet that Oracle Team USA have worked this out, and have the ability to mode their boat for the narrow range of conditions that this regatta is now being sailed under.

    Their low windage and low drag aero package is optimised for this range, and outside this range they are more vulnerable. But those edges have been eroded by decisions that have been made.

    For the New Zealanders the only option seems to be less cautious at the start, getting their timed runs right, and hitting the line at top speed and being much more aggressive tactically. Their basic package has been designed for a wider range of conditions and can't be changed too much.

    Today's win by Oracle Team USA was decisive – maybe the turning point of the regatta, as they were able to break the psychological advantage of the port-tack entry which before today has produced the winner of six of the last seven races.

    For a New Zealand sailing public, wondering why this Regatta has changed shape so dramatically, the above may provide some explanation if not solace.

    Oracle Team USA finishes on Day 13, America's Cup 2013 Tracy St John ©

    For sure, the mountain ahead of the Kiwis is now just as steep as it is for Oracle Team USA.

    The double irony of this regatta is that no matter who wins, this is the last time we will see an America's Cup of this type.

    If Emirates Team NZ win, and the nationality rule comes in, we will never again see a multi-national crew of the style in the Defender, compete in the next Cup, if ever.

    And if Oracle Team USA win, few outside a very select circle of billionaires will be prepared to compete. Few will believe that any cost-cutting measures that will inevitably be spoken of at the end of this regatta will ever work, or that the Rules as envisaged a year or so out from the Match will be in force for the Regatta itself.

    Start Race 17 on Day 13, America's Cup 2013 Kurt Molnar ©

    All those who have been on the water for this America's Cup Match will often have enjoyed long and frequent moments of jaw-dropping wonderment at the sheer spectacle and awe of these magnificent yachts competing, and doing what they do best.

    For a while during that day-dream, it doesn't seem to matter which team wins – the spectacle is so breath-taking.

    But then you snap-back into reality. Give your self an upper-cut, and start supporting your own team.

    Enjoy it while you can – this type of event will be never seen again.

    Stay tuned to our website www.Sail-World.com for daily updates on how the action finally unfolds in the 34th America's Cup.

    Good sailing!
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