220volt service 51' project boat

Discussion in 'Powerboats' started by EMBIBB, Oct 4, 2007.

  1. EMBIBB
    Joined: Sep 2007
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    EMBIBB Junior Member

    I have some wiring questions for a 220 volt service from dockside and from the generator. My needs are for a 220volt range and 220volt A/C compressor.
    Currently, the panel was wired for a 110volt 30amp service and I am planning to run two 50 amp plugs to the dock. Any advice would be appreciated.

    eddie
     
  2. TerryKing
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    TerryKing On The Water SOON

  3. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    As I understand it the wiring for 110 would be heavier than what is required for240 so I would think that the wiring can remain. The first thing that comes to mind is that if you are 110 you must be American wired.

    They are wired differently from others, such as the bonding system.

    What is the problem exactly with wiring to the dock or your gen. Simply wire the supplies,-- gen/ shore /inverter onto a selector switch. I used three seperate switches and have consiquently already lost one expensive invertor.

    On the other hand if I select shore and gen I can run the marina!!!!!!!! Well I could if the gen was big enough but I could run the boat next to me.
     
  4. Ike
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    Ike Senior Member

    The big physical difference between 110 and 220 is the wires. 110 has three wires, white, black and green. 220 has four wires. white black red and green. Polarity is a big issue, so you should have a polarity indicator. The shore power cord and socket are different as well. I would suggest you let a certified marine electrician wire it so you don't end up burning your boat or worse.
     
  5. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

     
  6. Ike
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    Ike Senior Member

    Yes I am confused about a lot of things, LOL but not that.
    There is single phase 120/240 (also called 110/220), Then there is single phase 240 with a transformer and 120/240 volt output, then there are three phase systens which are not generally used on small yachts, but are common on ships and large yachts.

    Why, when the rest of the world says that a 2 wire system is not safe, is there always someone who insists it is? My house (that I no longer own) that was built in 1870 had a two wire system. I had it changed to three because it nearly bruned the house down. Frankly, I think I have made it pretty plain in other posts that I don't like AC on boats anyway, but it is here to stay and better be done right because it brings a whole host of problems aboard the boat. I know many people who are extremely knowledgeable about electrical systems on boats, and even they all argue about how it should be done. But they all agree on one thing, AC Is dangerous and can kill you in an instant. So don't screw around with it.

    Anyway I will pray for you safety and a long life.
     
  7. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Ike,--- In 1870???? Did you build it yourself.

    I did'nt know they had electricity then but the quality of electricity is much better these days!!!

    There has also been a big increase in plastic bodied totally insulated appliances.

    You have 3 pin plastic Black and Decker drill??? where does the earth connect to on the drill?? Tv, fax machine, kettle, blender etc
     
  8. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    I suggest you get the book on marine electrical systems by Nigel Calder.
    In most libraries , free to read.

    FF
     
  9. nero
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    nero Senior Member

    single phase 220 in america is a wierd animal.

    There are two wires that connect to the breaker in the breaker box. One of the contacts on the disjuncter is touching a strip that is conected to one of the service cables. The second contact on the circuit breaker is touch a strip that is connected to the second phase and a different service cable. Some way the americans are adding two 110 sources to get 220 V. Something to do with frequency, but, this no one can explain to me. The electrician claimed that the two hot wires ground each other out.

    Then there is a third wire which is the safety ground. It connects to a bar inside the breaker box. The bar is grounded outside the box and at the meter box.

    There is sometimes another white wire that is a ground wire. In 220 american it seems to serve as nothing as there is no place to connect it to on an outlet. Many people seem to doulbe it up with the ground as an extra protection.

    240V european is a different type of electricity that resembles 110V american ... but it is much stronger than 110V and 220V.
     
  10. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    That must be right hand drive electricity, probably measured in yards.

    I think the European electricity is different,--its certainly a different colour.

    I think thats why they went for the electric chair, its lethal stuff that thar American tricity.

    Here in Thailand I have never seen a house on fire due to electricity circuit failure. Amazing as it may be with wires all over the place, ( I understand America still has up top wires and transformers) the Thais are just now going underground.
     
  11. TerryKing
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    TerryKing On The Water SOON

    USA compared to (Not VS) Europe...

    Not sure I want to get into ALL the detail on this :eek:

    I have lived in both the US, AFrica (French system) and Mainland China, and opened up the circuit breaker (DisJoincteur) box in each place and probed around with my meter.

    For typical USA homes and European homes (Big buildings are different), the difference is in the type and configuration of the distribution transformers (often on a power pole outdoors in the US).

    Most USA Homes have a "Single Phase 115-230 volt" service. The distribution transformer is driven from a single high-voltage cable, and has a Center-Tapped secondary winding that is wired into the home. The transformer has a voltage of 115 volts from the center tap to each side of the transformer, and 230 volts across the whole winding. Those 3 wires, usually labelled "Line1, Line 2 and Neutral" are run into the home to the "Service Entrance Panel" which usually has many different circuit breakers. ALSO a "Grounding Conductor" (Usually Green) is run into the home, and connected to a GROUND ROD driven into the Earth. So inside the "Service Entrance" there are 4 wires: L1, L2, Neutral and Ground. AT the service entrance ONLY the Neutral wire (From the distribution transformer center-tap) is connected to the Grounding Conductor and Ground Rod. USA homes can have two kinds of loads. 115 volt lights and appliances use a 3-wire plug that connects to Line(1 OR 2), Neutral, and Ground. SOME 115 volt loads are connected to L1 and some to L2, depending on the layout of the Service Entrance. There are also high-power loads such as clothes dryers and heaters that use 230 volts. These connect to 2 adjacent circuit breakers and to both L1 and L2. These loads MAY (but not always) have Neutral connected so that some internal parts can use 115 volts. They DO have a safety connection to "Green Ground".

    So, USA homes usually have both 115 volts and 230 volts available.

    In (most of) Europe and North Africa, there is a different system. The distribution transformers for homes are THREE phase, and have three windings with one common connection, in a "Wye" (shaped like the letter Y) connection. The center of the Wye is considered "Neutral" and connected to the Grounded Conductor like in the USA. The voltage from each of the 3 "Line" wires (usually labelled L1,L2,L3) to Neutral is 220 volts. Most lights and appliances are connected from "Line" to "Neutral" like in the US, but the voltage is 220 volts. Many smaller and older homes have only 1 "line" connection brought in, and only 220 volts available. Many large modern homes have 2 or 3 lines brought in. The voltage from one Line to another (say L1 to L2) is 380 volts. WHY?? Why not 220 + 220 = 440? Because it is a 3-phase system and the voltages are 120 degrees out of phase, not 180 degrees like the US system. So, as everyone knows, :p 220 times the square root of 3 is 380.

    As a kicker, Europe/Africa/Asia has a Frequency of 50 Hz, not 60 Hz like the USA. USUALLY this is compatible and not a problem.

    SO: What To Do On A Boat??? USA head people usually use a large onboard "Isolation Transformer" with a 230 volt primary and the same 230 volt Center-Tapped secondary connection like a USA home. This can be connected to a Marina in the USA to a "230 Volt" connection, or a European "220 Volt" connection, and deliver about the same 115 and 230 volts onboard. And the transformer isolates "Ground" (whatever THAT is in a Marina) onshore from "Ground" on the boat, as well as providing the right voltages.

    I GUESS that European boaters use a "220V to 220V" Isolation Transformer.

    Is that right??

    OK, please correct any inconsistencies here...
     
  12. nero
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    nero Senior Member

    Thanks Terry!

    Now if I could find an illustration of that somewhere. Since I split my time between France and the US, I wanted to buy one of the inexpensive inverter welders here in france and use it in the states. The manufacturer here didn't know if it would work with the US juice.

    Also I note that the white neutral wire is wired to the same bus as the green/bare ground wire. On a 220 outlet there is no place to wire the white wire ... only the green wire. When in france we have the blue, red, and green ground for the 240V.
     
  13. Man Overboard
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    Man Overboard Tom Fugate

    There are a couple of comments that may make USA wiring more clear.

    In all modern US homes two "Hot " lines (line 1 and line 2) are brought into the home from the transformer to what we call the "service entrance"; usually a breaker box with a main breaker and two rows of circuit breakers. One row of breakers is attached to line 1 the other row of breakers is attached to line 2. Each line provides 115 volts to circuits throughout the home. We call this single phase, but that is a bit of a misnomer because in reality you are using 2 phases.

    In addition, one neutral line is brought into the home from the transformer, This is the return back to the transformer (as this is AC, I say return, for lack of a better explanation) electricity from either line 1 or line 2 flows back to the transformer across this neutral line.

    In reality, this neutral line is grounded, but more on that later.

    So all US homes have 220 available, even if it is not used to produce 220 volts per say.

    In the US appliances like air conditioners, electric dryers compressors, welders, may be 220 volt. A home (or boat) can be wired with a 220 volt circuit to serve these appliances. The 220 v circuit is created by running three wires from the breaker box; one wire attaches to a breaker from line one the other wire attaches to a breaker from line 2. The third line is the neutral line which completes the circuit. Electricity flows through both hot lines through the appliances, and then across the neutral line back to the breaker box.

    To recap:
    For 110 volts there is a minimum of 2 lines in the circuit; one hot,(either from line 1 or line 2) and one neutral.

    For 220 volts there is a minimum of 3 lines required; 2 hots (you must use both line 1 and line 2) and the neutral.

    Now about the ground wire, this is where most people get confused. In the US we use an additional wire called a ground. If a ground wire is used on the 110v circuit, there would then be 3 lines. if it is used on the 220v circuit, that would be 4 lines. In modern homes, it is always used on the 110 circuit; on 220 circuits it depends on the appliance or piece of equipment, it is sometime used, and sometimes it is not used.

    The ground wire is not necessary to cause eclectic items to function, its sole purpose is as a safety feature to cause the breaker to trip if a short develops from the line to any metal portion of the equipment that you may come in contact with. For instance, on an air conditioning unit with a 220 volt compressor installed, if a short developed for some reason to the outside metal enclosure and that metal enclosure was not grounded, the breaker would not necessarily trip. If you then walked up to the air conditioner and touched the case, you could complete the ground and electricity would flow through YOU. The ground wire assures that metal portions of electrical equipment that are not part of the electrical circuit are always grounded.

    Remember before, I stated that the neutral is grounded. This also causes confusion. Keep in mind, that electricity is just trying to find the closest path to get to the ground. You could cut the neutral line going to the transformer, and just stick the neutral line coming from the breaker box in the ground, and the whole system would still work albeit, possibly not as efficiently. In fact, just outside the home, the neutral line is actually grounded by running a heavy coper wire from the neutral line to an 8 foot copper rod that has been driven into the ground. (We now are actually required to use 2 copper rods driven into the ground.)

    Going back to the ground wire used inside the home; this wire is also led to ground simply by attaching it to the neutral line inside the breaker box. Remember, the neutral line is grounded anyway.

    This is where the problem comes in when dealing with boats, but I won't comment on that, as I will leave that to someone with more experience in boat wiring.

    Nigel Calders touches on this in one of the articles he has written for Pro Boatbuilder, if I can find it, I will post the link. It would be a good refresher course.

    In Eddies case, dealing with a boat, It would not absolutly be nessacery to run two hot lines into a boat for 110 volt service. Posibly only one line has been run to the breaker box. In order two have 220 running from a shore line,
    both line one and line two would have to be present inside the breaker box, along with the neutral.
     
  14. TerryKing
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    TerryKing On The Water SOON

    A little issue..

    There is a misconception about 'Neutral' here. If there is a 230 volt load connected to L1 and L2, there does not need to be a connection to neutral.
    CURRENT flows from L1 through the 230 volt load (a heater or pump motor for example) and to L2. No current flows through Neutral.

    Current flows through Neutral only when there is a 115 volt load connected between L1 OR L2 and Neutral.
     

  15. Man Overboard
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    Man Overboard Tom Fugate

    This is true, I stand corrected.

    In addition, this is then technically not true:
    A search on Wikipedia gave this explination:
     
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