2015 IMOCA 60-Foil Assist

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Jan 15, 2015.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    These foils are very interesting-watch the video:
    Google Translation:
    It's been about a year since the Banque Populaire team develops different forms of foils on the Mini 6.50 Liquid Karen of Sébastien Picault (Kickers) . Designed in 1997 by another Sebastian (Magnen) Karen Liquid is then very advanced for its time and is still competitive today. Because her hull design is similar to that of the monohull IMOCA 60 today, Banque Populaire praised the small racing car to test its foils. Numerous sea trials (see video) was made ​​between Lorient and Concarneau in secrecy: to return to port, the foils hiding coyly coveted forms under covers. The images of the long-awaited new Banque Populaire VIII hydrofoil of Armel Le Cléac'h , a plan signed VPLP - Verdier , were unveiled at the press conference this morning.

    ----
    If the integration of foils on a 60 'monohull IMOCA is revolutionary, Armel Le Cléac'h recalled VIII Popular Bank will not fly like the multihulls. However, the foils should largely alleviate the hull and boost the performance of a boat to the already very powerful hull. The launch is expected in March , just before the Grand Prix Guyader which opened in early May, the 2015-2016 season IMOCA World Ocean Masters Championship. The opportunity to compare the potential of Bank Populaire VIII than Safran , the new plan VPLP - Verdier Morgan Lagravière . The Transat Jacques Vabres (starting October 25, 2015) will be a key step schedule. Armel Le Cléac'h will play the race along with Erwan Tabarly , with which it has never done team. The goal, ultimately, is obviously the high mass of the Vendée Globe 2016-2017 (starting November 6). If Armel Le Cléac'h obviously dream of winning after his second place behind François Gabart (Macif) at the last edition, it will be necessary on board Banque Populaire VIII against five other new VPLP - Verdier (Safran, Groupe Edmond Rothschild, Hugo Boss, Vento Di Sardegna and St Michael Virbac).



    This is Banque Populaire :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2333YiDM0h0
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Open 60's 2015

    More on Banque Populaire monofoiler(?) here:
    http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...ewsletter&utm_term=An IMOCA fitted with foils

    Excerpt from the article:

    The choice of designers

    Armel Le Cléac’h: “We went for VPLP Verdier because of their skill and they were nearby, as we needed to be in touch all the time. Their boats perform well and have always evolved. Banque Populaire wanted to work with a French yard, French craftsmen so we went for CDK. Once again, we can take advantage of them being close to us. We set about working with Safran to do certain things together, such as the tooling and the hull mould. The designers showed us the new features for the hull on which they had been working. Work began on the mould a year ago or eight months after the start of the project.”

    An IMOCA fitted with foils
    Armel Le Cléac’h: “The major innovation is the arrival of foils. The designers suggested these after the experiments in the America’s Cup and in sailing in general, where foils are becoming more and more common. The idea was to use these new technologies to take the weight off the hull at certain speeds and to allow acceleration. We did a lot of work with the research team and the designers, and the whole of the Banque Populaire team. This is a huge challenge, which initially was very theoretical. We decided to carry out experiments with the Team. We chartered Sébastien Picot’s Mini 6,50 N°198 on which we fitted three daggerboards, one traditional one and two with foils to carry out trials from July 2014 under the supervision of Bertrand Pacé, to find out more. It was fascinating. It was complicated to set up and adjust and after a lot of attempts, we had some surprises. We went for one of the two options suggested by the designers. We added the foils to the construction in December.”

    Vincent Lauriot-Prévost: “When the keel is canted windward, the keel blade generates some lift for the boat and to act against the heel, we have the foils making up for the loss of power. We regain the power by generating vertical thrust. The boat is therefore in air mode more than the previous generations. It has to correspond to certain angles and forces that we often find in the Vendée Globe, and the result is a huge gain in speed of several knots. The boat will not be more powerful, but will appear to be lighter with a smaller wetted surface as she is raised up by these appendages.”
     
  4. Kapteeni Kalma
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    Kapteeni Kalma Junior Member

    The Banque Populaire foil looks to be superior to the Welbourn DSS.
    The BP foil has uniform lift at the whole span, while the Welbourn foil changes from low to high pressure at the twisting point from vertical to horizontal.
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Welcome to the forum,Skyeborne! This Welbourn foil(picture 1 below) does have different pressure on both sides which causes drag, but he explained to me that it was for one older Open 60 (not all the boats) and that the VPP showed gains despite the disadvantages.
    When the boat heels with the BP foil there is definitely* high and low pressure on the same side of the foil due to leeway causing high pressure on the portion of the foil closest to the hull while the uptip portion has low pressure on the inboard side and high pressure on the outboard side. And it appears to me that it violates the Welbourn patent.
    The picture in the center shows an Open 60 hull designed specifically for DSS.
    The illustration on the top right is the pressure distribution on the BP foil as best I can tell*.
    * depends on angle of heel ,foil angle of incidence, boat speed and amount of leeway. See sketch 3 below comparing the TNZ AC 34 foil configuration to the BP foil configuration. For them to be similar in function the circled areas have to be used for leeway resistance. It's possible this is the intent of the designers. My question is that the area of the outboard foil section on BP doesn't even compare to the size daggerboards the Open 60's in the past.Will be interesting to learn more.
     

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    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  6. Kapteeni Kalma
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    Kapteeni Kalma Junior Member

    Thanks. I believe that the original Welbourn patent does not deal with side force. The new Welbourn Open 60 does that too, but totally different way. It has 2 opposite profiles and lifting forces working, while the BP works with one profile.
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Open 60's 2015

    I think when the the BP boat is more or less level the foil works more or less like DSS. But when it heels things change as best I can tell.
    I think Welbourn's DSS solution is better because lateral resistance is still achieved thru the use of a daggerboard(or keel fin) so the two components of lift are separated. The DSS foil can be retracted when not needed-the BP foil can't . It's sure going to be interesting to watch what happens!
     
  8. Kapteeni Kalma
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    Kapteeni Kalma Junior Member

    Yes! Nice to see rapid progress.

    The foils can be made wholly rectactable, just like the curved daggerboards now in use. Some creative tweaking in the box area, voila!

    Also, some monohulls seem to be able to adjust the daggerboard angle like AC 72's. The daggerboard top chip off makes longitudional room in the box for it. That might not be legal in sailing rules now, but not for long.
     
  9. eastern motors
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    eastern motors Junior Member

    Why make the foils on BP8 retractable? The windward foil will never be in the water and making them retractable must increase the weight significantly. Is windage more important than weight? If I recall correctly, IMOCA boats are limited to five (5) movable appendages, but can have unlimited fixed appendages. So if the foils were fixed, they could add a dagger board.

    Does anyone have a link to the Wellbourn patent on the USPTO site or google patents?
     
  10. Kapteeni Kalma
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    Kapteeni Kalma Junior Member

    In light conditions it is crucial to get everything lifted out of the water. Ocean racing can be patchy, so there are huge gains available, and also losses if one loses touch with the fleet.
    The keelboxes are ideally part of structural skeleton maybe not that bad dead weight.
     
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Here are a couple shots of the Mini 6.5 they used to test the foils:
    click-
     

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  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  13. eastern motors
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    eastern motors Junior Member

    The BP8 foil is non-infringing, imo. This patent seems extremely narrow to me. I doubt anyone ever needs to license it.

    Claim 1 is the only independent claim.

    I highlighted two difference I can see in the photos. The aspect angle and angle of attack might be non-infringing as well. Only one difference is needed to avoid infringement.

    1. A monohull sailing vessel comprising:
    (a) a hull with a longitudinal dimension, a bow, a stern, a port side, and a starboard side;
    (b) at least one mast for supporting at least one sail, the mast coupled to the hull;
    (c) a lifting hydrofoil having a stowed position in which the lifting hydrofoil is disposed inward of the hull and a deployed position in which the lifting hydrofoil is adapted to extend outward of a leeward side of the hull and in the water supporting the vessel;
    (d) wherein the lifting hydrofoil has an aspect ratio that is greater than about 2:1;
    (e) wherein the lifting hydrofoil when in the deployed position is oriented at a predetermined angle of attack to a fore and aft plane of the vessel, the predetermined angle of attack being between about 2 and 6 degrees;
    (f) wherein the lifting hydrofoil when in the deployed position is oriented at a mean angle of between about 5 and 20 degrees to a horizontal plane when the vessel is in a non-heeled state so that the lifting hydrofoil is substantially parallel with the water plane when the vessel is heeled to a normal optimum sailing heel angle;
    (g) wherein the lifting hydrofoil when in the deployed position has a projected area adapted provide a righting moment tending to counteract a heeling moment applied by the sail of the vessel and a lifting force for partially but not fully lifting the vessel out of the water;
    (h) wherein the lifting hydrofoil has an exposed span that is greater than about 7% of a height of the tallest mast of the vessel, the height measured from the water plane; and
    (i) an actuation assembly for moving the lifting hydrofoil between the stowed position and the deployed position.
     
  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    DSS Patent

    I'm 99% sure you are wrong......if you think an anonymous internet poster has one iota of credibility compared to Hugh Welbourn, then you are delusional.
    And, by the way, welcome to the forum......
     

  15. eastern motors
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    eastern motors Junior Member

    What am I wrong about?

    Why does my credibility matter? All information in my post is public (patent, pics you posted, and patent law).

    I'm 99% sure you don't know anything about patent law.
     
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