18' Osprey Multifoiler from Dr. Sam Bradfield

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Dec 17, 2008.

  1. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

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  2. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Foil Sets available

    Check out Dr. Bradfields site for the new foil sets that are available for three different size foilers!
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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  4. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Osprey

    Just went by Matt McDonalds Falcon plant at Port Canaveral to check on the Osprey. The boat looks real good and will be test sailed the first time this Friday.
    The carbon foils were outstanding with Bradfields typical flap attachment system: solid rod thru molded attachment points with a little slack to allow slight foil bending w/o binding. Push rod was a rectangular carbon section and the whole thing was exceptionally smooth.
    Excellent tooling and resultant finish by Matt and his team.
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Osprey--hog heaven for me!

    What a spectacular boat-no other word for it!! These are pre-sailing pictures-had to come back and download them. Very, very light wind but should have sailing-or at least floating pictures later.

    click on image:
     

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  6. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Osprey

    Here are the Holy Grail of foiler pictures. Light air while I was there-left about two. Dr Sam(see pix below) just sent me these-I left too early!
    -----------------
    some technical stuff:
    LOA 18'
    Beam 20' (+foil tips)
    Upwind SA 350 sq.ft.
    Weight 400lb. (Note: W/SA is better than a Moth-so is SA/ws on foils, I think. more later)
    Dr. Sam has been a foiler pioneer for over 40 years and this his latest. The boat uses the dual ,independent altitude control systems that not only control flying height but also control righting moment-generated mostly by the foils. In fact, the foils are so good at generating righting moment that the limit is the structure of the boat!

    click on image and then click a second time for a larger image:
     

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  7. gypsy28
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    gypsy28 Senior Member

    looks great, what is the set up time?
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Current configuration 2-3 hours. But this is a prototype and I imagine production versions would be much quicker.
     
  9. Hussong

    Hussong Previous Member

    So, why did you bail when the boat was about to be sailed, Doug? Any foil hamster alive would have given their left nut to be there when it launched.

    Sorry, it does not look great. The bow-up attitude is way less than satisfactory and the trim of the sail is awful, There's lots of work to be done there.. and Doug, please, it would be really good if you didn't start right in with the assumptions of how things would be for a production version, when this is but a prototype. This boat will likely be quite a bit different if and when, it might be produced commercially. The stated weights indicate a full carbon program and that means that a production product will really bang the cash register to the max for any interested souls.

    By comparison, the M23 trimaran is USD$38K ready to sail and it does not have an all-carbon/epoxy build, nor does it have seriously expensive lifting foils with all the control elements needed to make it all work. Get ready for a $50K+ exercise if you want this boat as it sits. That's not speculation, it's cold hard facts.

    Yes, it's a cool little one off, but as a viable commercial product it is fraught with major problems that will need to be sorted.
     
  10. gypsy28
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    gypsy28 Senior Member

    Well MY opinion is that it looks great, and last time I checked YOU don't tell me MY opinion

    Do you ever have anything nice to say Hussong?
     
  11. FMS
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    FMS Senior Member

    Thank you for posting the photographs.

    I agree with gypsy. The first test is very premature for all the criticizing, Hussong. Whenever something new is tested, some people like to be the half-empty type :(

    I'd like a ride on this if I had the chance.

    Could you capture a short video next time it's tested?
     
  12. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Bradfield Osprey

    Thanks ,guys. "Hussongs"(c-o) comments have nothing to do with the boat-he simply doesn't know what he is talking about.
    The pitch up attitude is typical of a Bradfield foiler in very light air. This one has loads of adjustment that can be used to tune the boat including adjusting the angle of incidence of the main foils and rudder foil and adjusting the wand tension among other things.
    I was there for about three hours and got the only pictures of the launch. Usually the sea breeze kicks in about 12-or 1pm we all thought it wouldn't pick up. When I left they were going to tow the boat to check on the foils. Looks like they lucked out and the wind came in! My consolation for not being there when they flew is that I'll see it many times in the future -and the sailing sight was a long way from the launch site-I really wouldn't have seen much if I could have stayed-the chase boat was full up. I had a great time and witnessed a spectacular boat!
    These guys are brilliant and Bradfield is a true foiler pioneer. The workmanship by Matt McDonald(Falcon) was just simply superb.
    I'm not sure I mentioned this but it appears that the numbers for this foiler exceed those for a Moth- I'll know more later maybe.


    Pictures: every foiler will sail with some degree of nose up pitch some of the time-particularly in light air where the foils take a natural high angle of attack to develop enough lift to fly. All kinds of adjustment is available on the Osprey to be sure the thing is flying with the right Coefficient of Lift-Bradfield will see to that during the tuning process:
     

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  13. Hussong

    Hussong Previous Member

    I have a question for you then, FMS and Gypsy. If one does not constructively criticize a new craft, then how does one ever discover what could be better? By your comment, are we to suppose that the boat is in its final form and that there's nothing to learn from the initial sailing session? I don't agree with that position and made observations about the boat that I felt were appropriate based on my experience and knowledge. You guys can have your own opinions, of course, but I have specific points in mind rather than some very general, "oooh, that's neat" perspectives. Every product you see in the marketplace, be they boats or otherwise, has to go through several rigorous design examinations before it is turned loose in front of buyers. That job is not invisible, as our expectations for a product that works and looks right is very high. I wonder what you'd say if Sony decided to just crank-out a 1080p HD-TV for you right out of the R&D lab, complete with an ill-fitting cabinet surround and a cheap pair of speakers that crackled with every sound emitted? That doesn't happen and its because a team of engineers and design analysts sit down and make lists of the stuff that isn't right. Do keep in mind that it was the OP who pushed for the discussion on production capabilities for the prototype. I simply offered a counter-point to the premature speculation.

    Foil equipped boats are but a very tiny slice of the overall sailing environment. Foils have an interesting place in the design of boats, but they are not an all-purpose salve that, when applied to a design, cures all its ills. For certain types of boats, operating in certain types of environments, they can be beneficial. Unfortunately for foil proponents, though, they will not be seen on mainstream boats with any success and their best use is for racing style boats in very limited applications. If you think I'm full of baloney, then put in a call to Greg Ketterman at Hobie and to Andy Zimmerman, the former president of Wilderness Systems, the folks who originally developed the Trifoiler and the Rave, respectively. Ask them point blank if the foiling developments for which they spent mounds of cash, ever went anywhere as commerically successful products. Now, how could that be, if the application is so wonderful? They both aimed the boats at the everyday guy at the launch ramp and both machines were large fails.

    Even those guys mentioned above, FMS and Gypsy, as smart as they both are, had to sit down after their first outing and make a list of the things that were not right about their boats. This one, the Osprey, is no different and the only way to move forward is to be objective about the effort and take the good, along with the bad, in an effort to improve a product. I'm saddened that you think it should be all about cream and cookies and that the world is a groovey place where we can all sing the mantras of the fanatic foiler. That glass with fluid metaphor you offered? I see yours as running wildly over the top from too much of the rose colored glasses.

    PS: It is really interesting that the OP is showing Moths to illustrate the argument regarding the Osprey. Even more interesting is that all three are in full-tilt, Veal Heel mode, which doesn't ever apply to a trifoiled multihull, because the foils, themselves, contribute all the righting moment that the structure can handle. A twin foil monohull foiler to show what is happening with a three foil multihull. Yes, they both have foils, but more to the point, they sail completely differently. Further along the interesting line... even Dr, Bradfield's own website, http://sites.google.com/site/hydrosail/ shows many of his boats with selected photos to show them on the water... and they are not exhibiting heavy, nose-up attitudes while under sail. It makes one go, hmmmmm?
     

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  14. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Bradfields Osprey

    Here are more pictures of the Osprey including the moment it first touched the water and some descriptions:

    Pictures,L to R, 1) rudder foil with push pull cables attached to the rudder foil flap pushrod-adjusts rudder foil loading/pitch attitude, 2) just before launch, 3)the "gear shift" for adjusting the rudder foil flap. There is one of these on each extension tiller. Neat arrangement on the extension tiller: they are so long they use a small diameter line(probably bungee) run from halfway up the shroud to the end of the extension tiller so it doesn't get caught under the hull or rear cross.
    4) 1st time touching water, 5) another view, 6) 1st time floating, 7) side view, 8) Sailing!

    click on image---
     

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  15. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Bradfield Osprey foiler

    Neat stuff:
    1) If you click on the center image and look to the trailing edge of the daggerboard you can see two notches, one nearly at the top and one halfway down. This is a really cool ride height adjustment system that allows the foil to be adjusted for max height(like yesterday) or about half that much. There is an aluminum(?) plate the thickness of the notch that slides in to hold the board in position. It is held in place by shock cord and makes adjustment quick and easy.
    -
    2) In the left picture below you're seeing the front end of the sliding angle of incidence adjustment system. The aluminum piece I mentioned above slides independently on this slide. The slide allows a 3.5 degree adjustment of the angle of incidence(foil angle relative to the boat).
    --
    3) On the top of the daggerboard on the center picture is the wand control bell crank showing the bungee rigged so that tension on the wand(holding it against the water) can be adjusted. These are temporary wands-the final versions will have an angled segment allowing the wand portion in the water to plane. Bradfield invented the planing wand long before it was ever used on a Moth(almost universally ,now). See third picture for the planing wand on the production Rave.

    These are excellent ,simple systems. By the way the rudder has a similar arrangement......

    click on image:
     

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    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
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