16' Restoration; Order of process question

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by OrcaSea, Nov 6, 2014.

  1. OrcaSea
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    OrcaSea Junior Member

    I have already stripped the glass off the deck of my 16' sailboat, and am processing with some final repairs. When those are complete my question is should I proceed with the fair & glassing of the deck before flipping the boat on the dolly, or should I flip the boat while the deck is still bare ply, strip the glass off the bottom and complete any & all repairs there. Then fair, glass and finish the hull, and then flip the boat and fair, glass & finish the deck?

    I am tending towards glassing the deck first, as I would obviously want to paint the hull (including the deck/hull glass seam) while inverted on the dolly. Beyond that consideration, does the order matter?

    Second part; How much overlap between the hull & deck glass is appropriate? To fair it in I assume I will need to taper the two layers to avoid a bulky seam and achieve a smooth transition. Is four inches of overlap enough? Am I missing something in my considerations here?

    Thanks, folks :)
     

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  2. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    If there is a rubrail, it can be used to cover the seam.
     
  3. OrcaSea
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    OrcaSea Junior Member

    Sadly, no rub rail. That would be too easy! LOL

    Hmmm...that brings up a point. What would be the best way to include a rub rail? It would save me having to route the sharp edge of the deck & hull ply.

    Curtis
     
  4. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    It is easy. You can use a wood or pvc molding, bed it and screw it in.
     
  5. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Generally it's wise to do all the similar processes at the same time. By this I mean if you're working with raw wood, then complete this stage, before moving onto fairing, smoothing and 'glassing.

    This often means you'll flip the boat a few times, getting the bottom and decks done, but this boat is a pretty easy thing to flip.

    That boat needs a rub rail. You can just bend a 1x2 around the sheer and call it a day, but this will not look as nice as one with some shapes worked in. Typically the rail is tapered slightly towards the bow and to a lesser extent toward the stern. You'll also want to incorporate a drip edge along the bottom, as well as beveling the back side so it lays roughly plumb along it's length. Of course ease the outboard upper edge a bit. I like to bevel the bottom a great deal, so if the rail hangs up on a dock or pile, the boat will bounce off and not catch, which can really damage the rail.

    In the end, there's lots of little things you can do to make rails better and prettier, such as a metal or plastic half oval, maybe a coved relief detail, etc.
     
  6. OrcaSea
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    OrcaSea Junior Member

    Thanks for the reply, advice & ideas.

    If I understand you correctly, PAR, you are describing something like 'A'? (Please excuse the terrible Paint sketch!).

    If so, I considered raising it and putting a quarter round ('B') on the inside, something like a toe rail, and perhaps with a decorative bead or a rounded outside edge, but am concerned that will trap water on the deck? I would need occasional channels for it to drain?

    I am a little confused by the 'drip edge.' I am familiar with its use in wiring (drip loops) and structure to prevent water from running along a line, but can you describe what you mean as applied to a rub rail?

    As always, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge & advice!

    Curtis

    [​IMG]
     
  7. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yes, you've got the idea, the bevel causes the boat to bounce off, rather than "hang" on a dock. A drip edge is usually just a groove under the rail, where a drop will be unable to transverse, so it drips clear of the boat, eliminating stains and streaks.

    I dislike toe rails on small boats, they're just not needed, generally. I usually make the rail two piece too, but with a horizontal seam, so water can't work between the two. The top piece "caps" the piece on the hull sides. Small scuppers can be built in to drain water, but most 16' boats are trailer borne, so any collecting water is really the fault of the owner not storing it bow up, so the pooling water can drain off the stern. Underwater, your butt will get wet, but welcome to the world of small sailboat ownership.
     
  8. OrcaSea
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    OrcaSea Junior Member

    I see, thank you.

    In the capped two-piece rail, the 'cap' would also extend over the deck, somewhat, to provide a sealing surface there?

    The angle at which the hull drops from the deck varies from 73-degrees at the transom, 83 at the broadest section of the deck to 75 degrees near the stem. The increasing angle will cause the rail to rise fore & aft. In your experience will that - when trimmed above deck level - provide the gentle taper for & aft, or will I need to increase the height dimension of the rail fore & aft to accommodate for that?

    I assume the rail can be clamped to gentle curve from the transom to the broadest part of the hull, but will have to steam it to make the more pronounced curve to the bow?

    I very much appreciate your advice!

    Curtis
     
  9. OrcaSea
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    OrcaSea Junior Member

    I'm sure some folks have seen this (I love Louis's videos) but this looks like a promising process for rub rails, or other steamed wood:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--iPQIwSEJM


    I assume the only way I could clamp is with straps, as I have no edge to clamp to.
     
  10. SukiSolo
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    SukiSolo Senior Member

    For small boats up to this size an assuming you will be sitting out when sailing her the attached sketch may help. The intent of the outer bevel is a little more comfort on one's backside. Believe me these angles are fairly critical on hard racing boats where comfort over some hours is required. You don't want a sharp edge digging in and cutting the blood supply!.

    I've put in PAR's drip groove, though this is not strictly necessary. It is used on most (all?) timber windows and lower door overhangs to stop water creeping back.

    There are a number of ways of building up the thickness. You would be surprised how good non stretchy tapes are for holding thin flexible battens in position whilst glueing - though trial first to find good tape. The sketch shows the section only in the sit out position, as PAR says you taper generally to the bow and stern and you need protection so the bevel is bled out to a more suitable radiused rectangular section. Hope it makes sense.
     

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  11. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    These are the usual ways I handle it. If there's a lot of twist in the topside planks, a laminate is easier, though you'd be surprised how limber a little heat will make a 1x2. I don't like to have a toe rail as part of the rub, but it can mount on top if desired, which eliminates a caulk seam. Note the supper hole, flush with the deck surface (dashed line) and different drip groove treatments, which can be pretty much any edge, so the drop will fall away before it reaches a seam or the hull.
     

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  12. OrcaSea
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    OrcaSea Junior Member

    Sorry for the late response (dang need to work) but thanks, guys, I appreciate the advice.

    I have some time to let this stew in its own juices for a while, but I have to say I kinda like the first example, PAR, as I like the idea of a fay sealing surface on both the deck & hull. Can you explain why you like the two-piece approach, otherwise? Does it make it easier to conform to the complex curves?

    As this is a protective/sacrificial structure, I like the idea of it being, primarily, soft wood, as I would rather it bruise/dent/splinter, if need be, rather than primary structure. I am thinking perhaps epoxy encapsulated fir with, perhaps, a white oak strip for abrasion resistance...?

    At any rate, as always, I very much appreciate your input and knowledge :)

    Curtis
     

  13. SukiSolo
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    SukiSolo Senior Member

    Normal practice is to 'bulk' up the strip in a lightish softwood but have a harder timber as the main capping. Sometimes this is say a spruce inner (or WR Cedar) and a mahogany (Khaya), sycamore (Rock Maple) outer. I prefer a mahogany, even Sapele outer as sycamore goes black pretty quickly with sea water and it yellows quite a bit over time. this lets the outer take any 'blow' and protects the softer inner. You don't want splinters, they are dangerous - main cause of injury even in the days of cannonballs! It is usualy fairly simple to scarf in a local replacment strip, even better if you keep back a little of the original stock to get a good match.

    There are quite a few ways of achieving the capping(s), although one pretty way involves a lot of scarfs and is quite wasteful of timber. The relatively simple strips along the edge is quite easy to achieve with a good result. Do not forget that you can plane down different angles after the first strip is glued on. It is also a lot easier to bend thinner pieces without any need for extra heat, and this also leads to less stress at the joint, even later a long time after glueing.
     
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