16' Keel boat-high performance

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, May 27, 2005.

  1. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    I've always thought that the little mini 12's were pretty cool and know from personal experience that sitting down inside a boat gives an exaggerated -and exciting -sense of speed. So how about a keel boat using some of the technology scaled down from the modern CBTF, "TMF" or other big ocean racers? Something singehanded using a hand or electrically moved canting keel, asymetrical spinnaker ect. Designed so the foils could easily be retracted for trailering. Crew has to sit inside with a minimum side to side movement.Instruments allowed..
    Maximum crew weight 220; weight equalized down to say a minimum of a 90 pound crew.
    The idea is to dramatically increase performance compared to mini 12's using the most advanced technology posible.
    A friend in NZ and I have discussed variations of this a lot; seems like it could be great fun; does anyone think it would sell?
     
  2. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    you could get quite a lot of money off a one design fleet. If you built one i know i would be interesting in sailing one. How fast would you guess the keel would cant from one side to the other?
     
  3. Tactic
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    Tactic Junior Member

    Baby canter

    Something like this maybe
    Cheers
    Tactic
     

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  4. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    i had a concept for a miniature canter a few years back. It would have been 15 feet long, carbon fibre, with a keel moved by a block and tackle arrangement connected to each side. Carbon spars and foils. retractable forward rudder. It would have been a doublehander most likely, with the helmsman controlling the main and the rudder(s), and the other guy controlling the headsail(s) and keel. Is this something similar to what you have envisioned Doug?
     
  5. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    16

    I envision a very narrow boat 16' or a little larger and a singlehander.
    I've even thought of ,perhaps, changing the "rules"a bit by allowing the crew to sit on the side rail but not hike. In lite to moderate air the crew would still be able to sit inside ,down low. If this was done it would be a lot harder to have an effective weight equalization system with as wide a range as described earlier.
    I think an electric canting keel would relieve crew work load which with an asy spin would be a little high.
    ===========================
    One other thing: there are serious challenges to making an effective high cant angle(55°-60°) keel work given the room constraints on this size boat but I think it could be done.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2005
  6. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    i thought about the electric and/or hydraulic canting keel on this size boat and figured the batteries and motors would add too much weight. If i were you i would let the crew out on the rail and possibly let them hike. It would let Ithe crews keep maximum sail area in heavier winds by keeping the boat flatter. My keel system would be with no electric/hydraulic work, but I think with the 2 winches attached to it it would be no different from trimming a large sail. Imagine a mainsheet traveler arrangement. It would be somewhat similar to that but heavy duty.
     
  7. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    16

    It seems to be to be hard to keep a focus on this type project. You start with the idea of a mini 12 which is a heavy displacement relatively high wetted surface boat.
    Then,I thought about just having a deep retractable fin keel-way better than the base boat. Then I thought that since most 16's are two person boats why not have a canting keel to add the power of a second person on a trapeze. Then I thought well maybe if we did that and let the crew sit on the deck we'd get more speed. Now you're talking about two crew and a canting keel. Whoa!
    On a 16 footer having two crew plus a keel even if it's canting will probably make the boat too heavy for its length; the canting keel is the equivalent of another person.In the case of a single hander a 180 to 220lb. keel bulb on a 4 or five foot canting strut would be more than another person. I'd want this thing to be easily sailed by a wide range of people so I'm inclined to think keeping the crew inside the boat is the best way to appeal to the widest number of people.
    But would it appeal at all? Would people consider it too complex for a small boat? Seems to me it would be a lot of fun to race one design...
     
  8. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    It is rather complex for a small boat, you're right about that. Complex boats appeal to people like me, but im not sure about the rest of the world. I think that rather than thinking of a Mini 12, you should think of a supermaxi type hull and work from that. I have always wanted to put a canting keel on a kayak shaped hull. Then you would be forced to leave the crew inside the hull. Add to this a 100% blade jib, smallish asymmetrical, and a water ballast tank in the stern to use off the wind for adjusting trim, and then that would be my upwind rocket. Its highly conceptual..i have no idea if it would actually work.
     
  9. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    16

    I didn't mean that I was thinking of a mini 12 type hull for the 16; quite the contrary I have considered an ultra light "super maxi" or scaled down (more or less) JS 9000 hull.
    I think it has a lot of potential..
     
  10. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    i totally agree with that. It'll start a small boat revolution.
     
  11. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Technical sailing

    I envision using instruments and really getting into technical sailing. But I would never (never say that) build just one of these because I would want to race not daysail...
    ========================
    "Tactic" has posted an interesting variation on the theme of a modern lite small keelboat at the low end cost wise under Wooden construction in the boatbuilding section of this forum under the "Mini 12" topic.
     
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  12. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    most boats are being made simpler these days though... I personally enjoy running around a boat pulling lines and adjusting things, but others dont agree with me
     
  13. Tactic
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    Tactic Junior Member

    As you know Doug I have thought about this alot in the past few years.
    I am not sure a canting keel will make this boat more fun to race than a fixed keel version.A canting keel boat could quite possibly be faster,but unlikely to be fast enough to put the performance into another category.
    But a canting keel does bring a new age novelty to the design,along with cost and complication.
    No flames on the canting keel issue please..I understand completly the benifits and drawbacks as they bertain to various yacht types.
    A 2 man boat with the crew moving around changes the whole concept to something else altogether.
    What we are talking about here is essentially a displacment keelboat which is sailed by one person seated in a small cockpit..Basically a more modern version of the Mini 12 type yachts.
    The designs I have drawn so far are more or less ACC type or JS9000 type hulls.
    I think this type of boat does have potential,I am thinking of more ways to expand the concept.
    Cheers
    Tactic
     
  14. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    16

    Tactic, when I saw your simplified(mentioned in my last post) version of this concept today it got me thinking again. My original version of this concept has blossomed into an 18' two person high performance boat.
    After thinking about it today
    keeping it around 16 has appeal and so does the simplicity of a deep J9000esque fin keel.
    If the problems could be solved the canting keel has a lot of potential but the simplified version might sell a lot better.
     

  15. Tactic
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    Tactic Junior Member

    The simplified version would be a cheap and easy build,Performance would be not bad either.
    I reckon I could throw one together for about $3000.
    The other designs require more complication in the build and rigging,likely to be about double the cost and not much faster..a canting keel could add another 1/3 to the cost.
    These types of boats would be nice for match racing and one design fleet racing.
    Also nice for learners as it won't tip over..also disabled sailors.
    The boats would be very equal in speed..close tactical racing.
    Basically evens the playing feild for 15 - 90 year olds as physical fitness is not a factor.
    A weight equalization system makes the racing closer as well.
    The mini 12 type boats need a dolly or crane to retreive from the water.A lifting keel and rudder means you can handle this boat like a dinghy as far as launching and retriving
    The simplified version would be very light and with the keel removed completely could be car topped like a kayak

    Cheers
    Tactic
     
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