12th edition of Transat Jacques Vabre: 8 Tris (Multi50 & Maxis) started on Sunday

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Skip JayR, Oct 26, 2015.

  1. Skip JayR
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    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    On a sunny Sunday front Le Havre (France) a beautifulyl spectacle with 42 boats (totally) on the start line...

    12th edition of TJV (Transat Jacques Vabre): 8 Trimarans (Multi50 & Maxis) started on 25th Oct racing along the “Route du Café” (~5,400 miles)

    Can the "old Multi 50" beat the new IMOCAs ?? - After nine hours sailing it didn't look so bad for the 3-hull boats as shown by the 24hx7d live tracker...

    The Maxi Tris... (big size image see attachment)
    [​IMG]

    Tracked Multi50 Trimarans ~30 nm behind the Maxis... (big size image see attachment)
    [​IMG]
     

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  2. Doug Lord
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  3. Skip JayR
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    Can the "old Multi 50" beat the new IMOCAs ?

    Your direct links are not very helpfully, DougLord. We are here not on Reddit just for maniac direct "link exchange". It has a reason why I wrote the post on my WTE blog and why I linked it for different reasons.

    Lets go into the discussion as I addressed for such already my question: Can the "old Multi 50" beat the new IMOCAs ?

    The physically princips basically are same for cruising boats and for racing boats; so the following discussion might be interesting for those who think about the decision "Shall I buy a monohull or multihull?".

    My own statement (or at least what I recognize by my own senses):
    The "status quo" of the TJV after first 27 hours speaks drastically for multihulls - either in the cruising or racing world. You get the screenshot of the live tracker in big via attachment. (Rec.: You can follow on your own tge live tracker here using your browser.)
    [​IMG]

    We clearly can see the heavily lack of (pimped) monohulls. - The newly designed IMOCAs of bigger size (60 ft.) with foil tuning cant compete against the smaller Multihulls of "only" 50 feet.

    What counts is the size and the boat type which are clustered for the TJV as following.

    • Class 40... ~12 meters LOA... average speed 11 knots
    • IMOCA (open 60)... ~18 meters LOA... average speed 14-15 knots
    • Multi50 (one design Trimarans).... ~15 meters LOA... average speed 15-16 knots
    • Maxi Trimarans (open design 90-110 ft.)... ~24-31 meters LOA... average speed 18-19 knots

    Here we remember, that the average age of the "old Multi50s" is 6 years, being built around 2009.... while the leader of the IMOCA fleet is still behind. It is Alex Thomson with his brand new and with foils highly tuned BOSS boat (couple of weeks ago launched). It is the black boat in the screenshot of the "live tracker".

    The Class 40 (the bulk of boats on top of the tracker picture) falls into the trap of a very low depression which was announced within the meteo consulting/briefing already on Saturday...
    [​IMG]

    The slower 40 footers (just 3 knots slower than the IMOCAs and 4-5 knots slower than the Multi50s) have to sail W-WNW course directly into the centre of the low depression- Instead: the target is Brazilian coast so they should head down to South to find back to the ideal course (the white-grey line in the tracker picture).

    The fastest Maxi Tris Sodebo and Macif (you can see on the bottom of the tracker screenshot) - by their speed potentials - get the chance to hunt easily way.

    The benefit is easily to be understood: More leight weighted = bigger speed, more safely the journey... same rule for a "cruising multihull" in comparison to "bigger monohulls". No difference as the physical principles are the same.

    So don't think, that it doesn't count to have 2-3 knots higher speed during long distance sailing (as cruisers). Its worth to keep a cruising catamaran/trimaran leight weighted for getting the essential benefit to keep the boat + crew on the safe side of "bad weather"...

    Happy & Safe Sailing !

    P.S.: Just comes in the news that the TJV participant and 60 Ft. monohull Edmond de Rothschild (part of Gitana Sailing Team's racing fleet ) has abandoned the TJV race because of different technical problems and is already on the way back to Lorient (home port of Gitana).
     
  4. Doug Lord
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  5. Skip JayR
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    pimped or not to be pimped by foils ?

    people know how to google, DougL. Dont worry... :) I am not the messenger of the TJV management team/owner and their sponsors. So no urgently need to bring them bigger traffic onto their website.

    What I am interested in such races to learn from, for my own understanding about boats and sailing.

    Many people who follow such long distance regattas have not understood, that its not a race between competitors... thats an illusion and very nonsense. Such "fighting" only happens during "Match Racing".

    Such long races are a very different challenges. Its the fight against your own weaknesses as sailor and different skills to bring into harmony the boat, nature elements and yourself.... within steadily changing conditions.

    So what I am interested in personally: "Which kind of performance (by boat + crew) can manage steadily this "balance" over long time ?"

    In my understanding the TJV gives a good perspective by its four different boat classes as the team performances depending individually on the boat classes become more quickly visibly. - And the race is not going too long only over a couple of days so its not time consuming for the spectator to follow.

    Lets see !
    ---
    P.S.: Have you followed the discussions on SteamRadio about "pimped = foiling IMOCAs" against "real boats" = Trimarans ? Here the thread "IMOCA60 foil-assist"

    Whats your opinion about the pimped Imocas ? I dont have the foiling skills to understand what I see... for me it looks like the IMOCAS imitate to be a Trimaran. Very nonsense in my understanding what the designers try to copy, isnt ?
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Tjv

    I think it's nonsense to call the "new" IMOCA 60's "foilers"-at best they are foil assist -something racing trimarans have used for 30 years or so. The new foils are interesting and based on the discoveries made with the TNZ foils in 34 though the outside vertical is more akin to the part of an UptiP foil coming out of the hull on a cat's lee side(rather than the "uptip" portion) in terms of how it works. Unfortunately, the rule penalizes* the boats that use this type of foil and puts them at a disadvantage upwind.
    * the restrictions apply to all IMOCA's but the boats that use the new foils have less windward ability but far greater vertical lift. The tradeoff seems to be a good bet on off-the -wind courses-not so much upwind-like the last legs of the Vendee.
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Tjv

    Update on Team Gitana(Edmund de Rothschild) from the TJV website:

    At 1900hrs this Monday afternoon the Edmond de Rothschild co-skippers contacted Cyril Dardashti, the manager of the Gitana team, to say they would like to retire from the race which is heading to Itajaí, Brasil.
    Sébastien Josse explained the reasons:

    “Since the afternoon we had a series of incidents aboard Edmond de Rothschild. Taken individually these problems are quite minor and if we had better weather we could probably put them right. But all added up to one another and given the weather conditions we see these incidents as potentially endangering us and the boat. The weather files show more than 40kts of wind at times and seven metre seas. Charles and I consider it would not be responsible to carry on in these conditions. The boat was only launched two and a half months ago, and despite all the work which was done by the Gitana team to optimises and be ready is so short a time, these are problems associated with a recently launched boat. The decision to abandon was a very hard one but we do not want to jeopardise more than a year of hard work. The boat was designed for the Vendée Globe and that remains the major objective of the team. It is hard to retire but we must not lose sight of that as the goal.”
     
  8. Skip JayR
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    risk taking...

    Indeed... not the only one.

    Macif christened end of August, Alex's Boss beginning of October :!: :!: , Thierry Bouchard's Tri Ciela Village end of September.

    I heavily wondered over last weeks what is going here and what huge risks the skippers like to take not knowing their boats in details. It needs time, not only tons of experiences and a big onshore crew for the pit stops.

    On Multi50 "La French Tech Rennes Saint-Malo" with Gilles Lamiré and "mad guy" Yvan Bourgnon happened similarly. The boat became ready beginning of October... and here lately it got the new sails with hand painting of the sponsor's logo (see attachments).

    Gilles and Yvan did their 500 nm qualification distance to get the permission for participating in the TJV sailing around 28th September :!: (Rec.: This distance must be sailed nonstop within 36 hours - between Rochelle-Wolfrock (South West England) and St Malo.) Nothing big for such a boat, but its only 4 weeks before start of the race. I wonder how the management of TJV likes to handle it that way.

    Remembers me the Formula F1 circuit... where the automotive designers create over winter brand new chassis and engines... and starting 1st race in spring still in midth the tests searching for the best performance.

    I see it differently: a racing car you can park when having problems. On high seas in autumn storms a crew should have 100% confidence in the strength of the boat and know each screw in details.

    Crazy... as soon "money (of sponsors)" rules the sports world heavily risks are taken.

    May we see all boats and two handed crews arriving safely in couple of days on Brazilian coast.
     

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  9. Doug Lord
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    Doesn't appear that Gitana entered in the Ultime Class-I wonder why?
     
  10. Skip JayR
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    IT dependency...

    Just to give another example of "just in time" preparations. The Multi50 Tri "La French Tech Rennes Saint-Malo" got a new navigation / routing software version of Adrena.

    Gilles Lamiré and Yvan Bourgnon sat in the workshop of Adrena on 17th September to learn the new features, see pics attached.

    So this racing Tri is equipped with a navigation software which is just running 5-6 weeks onboard :!: :confused:

    No doubt, Adrena is highly professional. It was used for the Volvo Ocean Race fleet... but its still IT world !
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMx7iW69QV8


    At least I'd run tests during different training units over 3 months to know that the whole computer network and software is "bug free" inclusively the backup system. Too risky for me how it is handled nowadays... isnt ?

    I handle computers since 1981... I can setup a Windows and Linux OS and network from scratch inclusive hardware configuration. Personally I would not trust this way of short time preperations. IT can go crazy unexpeted and can ruin (sports) business too easily and quickly... and damaging the sponsor's interests and campaign targets.
     

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  11. Skip JayR
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    Doug L, they did.... the boat is being built (as the project already has started this year) and is to be expected ready in 2017.

    The officially Gitana pre-announcement came in Frebruary this year. Since spring its out in the world and the construction phase has begun already !
    http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/...the-world-solo-racing-one-that-will-fly-64254

    http://www.vsail.info/2015/05/15/gitana-team-launches-the-construction-of-a-maxi-multihull/

    I suppose we can expect something in the size of 110-115 feet. Thats why Gitana is testing the foils on the MOD70; they have the boat as a test environment as we know with the first videos since July 2015.

    Gitana will go public with first pictures of the new Maxi Tri in December during the Salon Nautique Internatoinal (5th-13th Dec) in Paris, so it is announced. I suppose these days they lurk heavily around how Sodebo and Macif are doing their TJV run to learn from.
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    I was thinking of the MOD 70-sorry.
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Tjv

    UPDATE from Scuttlebutt:

    ULITMATE UPDATE: The 76-foot trimaran Prince de Bretagne of Lionel Lemonchois and Roland Jourdain has capsized while they were 140 miles off La Coruna. The two co-skippers are safe and have taken shelter inside the trimaran. They have not requested assistance and their technical team is making every effort to organise help to rescue them and their vessel. At the time of the incident the boat was upwind in 20 to 25kts of SSW’ly wind. - See more at: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...r-transat-jacques-vabre/#sthash.hlX36NCy.dpuf
     
  14. CT249
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    No way could the 60' monos normally beat older 50' tris. The performance gap between mono and multi seems to have been increasing over time, from the calculations I have done about transAtlantic racing.

    Of course, for most people the comparative speed is basically irrelevant, so it doesn't matter at all which is faster.
     

  15. Skip JayR
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    ULTIM Trimaran capsized.... crew of Prince de Bretagne safe...

    Yes... confirmed by TJV HQ :-(
    http://www.transat-jacques-vabre.com/en/prince-de-bretagne-capsize-skippers-safe

    Prince de Bretagne Capsized while sailing upwind in 20 to 25kts of SSW’ly winds. .... dam**** doesn't sound yet as extremely bad conditions a 30 meter Tri cannot handle safely.
    [​IMG]

    It seems the crew (Lionel Lemonchois and Roland Jourdain) is safely inside the boat, not yet seen as an emergency case. Very pitty. I like Roland J. a lot... he is an inspiration.

    Who want get such news at 02:00 am ??? 2 other monohulls have abandoned too beside 60 ft. Edmond de Rothschild.

    It was published 1.5 hours ago on Sailing world....
    http://www.sail-world.com/Transat-Jacques-Vabre---80ft-trimaran-Prince-de-Bretagne-capsizes/139528
     
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