Dipping lug on a proa?

I'm working on a small proa, well, actually, I'm wishing I had time to work on it and I got to wondering if a shunting proa might not be the ideal platform for the dipping lug.

The problem with the dipping lug has always been that the dipping had to be done in the most unstable, dangerous part of the boat, but in a pacific style proa with a single mast in the center of the boatand the wind on the beam, the dipping gets done in the most stable, safest part of the boat.

with a dipping lug rig on a shunting proa the front end of the yard would go right over the operators head mid shunt, dipping would just be a matter of grabbing the front end of the yard and shoving it behind the mast, might have to use both hands on bigger boats

Since I can't find a single picture of a dipping lug on a proa I figure I must be missing something and there's a good reason why it wouldn't work.

just wondering if anybody has any thoughts or pics of a dipping lug on a proa.

2b

 

I guess you could have any rig you like on any boat, but if you value convenience and safety, I can't see how a dipping lugsail would be useful.
For a start, imagine the gymnastics you would need to go through to make sure you don't end up with a "bad tack". Even IF you had a free standing mast, getting the gaff on the leeward side of the mast, let alone the sail, would be really trying.
For my money, any sail ( like a Burmuda main) that sets itself on any tack, is miles ahead in so many areas. including performance.

 

I think it as interesting idea - would probably lead the centre of effort being quite far aft and might need Newick-type dagger/rudders to get things to balance (or similar, e.g. 'Toroa'). It might also be interesting to look into the technique Beer Luggers use to dip the yard

 

Yeah, but the Bear Lugger technique ends up with the lower end of the gaff at the same end of the boat, NOT like on a Proa where you have to change the whole orientation.

After that process, you then have to walk the whole sail around any stays.

 

lol, I've watched that video about 8 times and I'm still not sure that some law of physics isn't being at least bent if not broken I'll have to research the rigging system, it can probably be adapted to make what I'm trying to do easier, thanks Rwatson, I am going to try that on my dingy, tomorrow, I like my balanced lug rig, but I'm a bit stiff and ducking the boom is a pain, literally a couple times the dingy has outriggers so I should be able to rig something to run the sheet around when running.

sorry guys, I guess I wasn't very clear, this proa will shunt, that is change direction so bow becomes stern and vice versa, so there won't be any tack, good or bad, the ama/outrigger side of the proa will always be to windward, and the sail and yard will always be on the lee side of the mast, confusing I know, you dip the sail/yard so it won't change sides of the mast because the wind is always coming from the same side of the boat, the sail turns end for end, the boat doesn't.

I suppose it does seem a bit bizarre to be considering something as unwieldy as the dipping lug in this day and age but it doesn't seem so unwieldy compared to the pacific shunting rig it's replacing I plan on playing with that rig too some day.

I'm interested in the lugsail for use as a ghoster, light air is a serious problem here, the dipping lug would be considerably lighter than a loose footed balanced lug and should be a bit better in light air, but I wouldn't mind going with a balanced lug if the dipping lug won't work.

what makes the the proa so different from the monohull is that when dipping the lug you're working from the front/luff of the sail, not the leach as you would be in a monohull, it should be much easier to dip the sail.

the Newick-type dagger/rudders look good, a bit out of my price range though but I think I could come up with something similer

I'm planning on using interlinked weatherboards like this setup
here's another video of the proa rigged to sail
and sailing


Here's a video of a proa with a junk rig on a center mast shunting, Must be an old vid as the junk sail isn't cambered.
I don't know the science behind it but there doesn't seem be any need to adjust the helm balance after the shunt in any of the videos I've been able to find.
the best shunt is towards the end of the video at 2:30 or so

here's a good video for those unfamiliar with proas and shunting, it's a fore and aft balanced lug rig

I'm still trying to figure out how port and starboard work in a proa

2b

 

Yes, it was always obvious to me - ( which is why I said "you have to change the whole orientation" ) and the "good" / "bad" tack STILL applies to Proas IF the sail ends up on the windward side of the mast after a shunt.

With a yard that come forward of the mast, its just plain awkward to rotate it, especially if the sail is attached.

Lots of boats have tried to use symmetrical "square" sails on single yards but they lose performance by having a sloppy leading edge, and having a hard to shape sail.

If you are just in the exercise for a bit of fun, play around with the rig, but if you actually want to end up with a safe, efficient workable sail plan, then lugsail plans wont end up as the successful solution.

 

I mucked around with it a bit yesterday, took the boom off the 55 ft2 balanced lug on my dingy, put a short rope on the front end of the yard, and just knotted the yard to the mast with a short piece of rope, the sail dips very easily from the front of the yard, just a matter of passing the rope from the front of the yard behind the mast, literally with my pinky finger and it takes about as long as an accidental gybe. Be more difficult with a bigger sail, but I doubt I could put a big enough dipping lug on a 16' proa to be a problem.

getting the sail on the wrong side of the mast during a shunt would be a non issue, it's not like tacking where one has to scramble to get done before the boat loses momentum, the boat is stopped during a shunt, one can take as long as one needs to dip the sail.

I'll probably mess around with a bunch of different rigs, I enjoy that kind of mucking about, otherwise I'd just by a bermudan sloop rigged boat with a motor.

Actually, one of the safest and probably most manageable rigs out there is a variety of lug sail and it's fairly efficient too

2b

 

55 foot ?????

Yeah but not a "safe, efficient workable sail plan". If you are threading your way up a narrow channel on an outgoing tide, you are in big trouble. Likewise, stalling in the middle of a shipping channel is no fun with a bigger boat heading towards you. I won't bore you with the details.

Likewise, lugsails are not efficient when you have to make the next mark. They point like blunt hypodermic needles.

There comes a time when playing in puddles runs out of fun, and you need to have something that works well, for 8 hours, every time.

 

sail area = 55 square feet?

 

ah - makes sense,

 

55 feet squared.

you do realize that there are literally millions of boats out there doing just fine and dandy on what you would call unsafe and inefficient rigs right?

I sail a balanced lug in the middle of a shipping channel 3 or 4 times a week, hasn't been a problem yet, a lot of times if I had to depend on the diddly little triangle I could hang on a 12 foot mast I would be stalled in the middle of the channel, which makes it a safe, workable, and efficient sail plan as far I'm concerned.

trouble? I suppose if I were to plan out a trip so badly that I ended up in that situation I might have a small problem, but trouble? I guess you and I have a different definition of trouble, I'd just fire up the engine, or dig out the oars, or drop the hook and read a good book till the tide and/or wind changed, but trouble? no trouble here.

that depends on the type of lugsail and how well it's cut, how it's rigged, and who's holding on to the sheet.

I'm sure the time will come when I'll say to myself, "Gee, I wish I could sail closer to the wind" then I'll do what I see the bermudan rigged boats do all the time when they need to go up wind, I'll fire up the motor. Before that day rolls around I'll probably think "Gee, I'm sure glad I've got all this extra canvas and the low coe" about 5000 times, I'm at about 1200 already.

I've yet to have a problem with making the next mark, but then I lay out my course for a balanced lug, race organizers lay out their courses for the bermudan, I can think of a few things I'd want to do less than racing, but seeing Roseanne Barr naked is the only one that wouldn't get this post deleted by the mods

well, if that rig is ever invented I'll definitely put it on my boat, considering that one can find epic fails of any rig you care to name in a minute or two on google it obviously doesn't exist yet.

really, the problem isn't that a lug rig sucks, or that the bermudan rig is better (it's not, just different), the problem is that you and I sail for totally different reasons, I won't break any records or win any races, but I will have a lot more fun than you, and to me that's a win.

2b

 

Hey
Interested to see how your dipping lug sail experiment went.
I’m toying with the idea of using standing lugsails on a tri, somewhat similar to what Nigel Irens used on Romily and Roxanne though a cat ketch not a yawl. Although monos they have proven to be very impressive and Nigel’s background in fast multihulls is incomparable. He’s had his feet in both camps.
I’m after a boat which is can be towed behind the land rover and a rig which is simple and efficient. I’ve got a standing lugsail on my 12 foot Oughtred Acorn tender and I just love it. Using a unstayed mast the sail can pivot 360 degrees which comes in handy if you need to depower in a hurry downwind.

 

Back in the 1970's James Wharram designed and I help build a 30ft dipping lug proa. I sailed it more than anyone. It was a lot of work to shunt as to get the balance right the mast had to rock for/aft. I later sailed two other proas, Russell Browns Bermudian rig was much easier to shunt. I wouldn't sail a proa in a narrow busy shipping channel (I assume you mean Boundary Pass) as you cannot gybe but in effect have to wear ship so you take up a lot of space and its slower than tacking. Also no one else knows what you are doing.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

I just ran across this expired thread, but I did this little proa (without a windward hull, just a foam filled hiking plank) with a dipping lug- it needed a lot more stability to shunt easily- I wound up using many a lakeside yard to bring the sail around. It was the most powerful sail I have experienced- more than squarehead windsurfing sails, for example, and I still have it, although I need a new mast for it. It had moments of going upwind nicely, but the best thing about the rig was that the mast could be set in the middle of the hull, which simplifies many things.
Steering is the bugaboo- steering with center of effort & changing lateral area was good in light air, but that goes out the window when windsurfers would be foot steering. But the few times I actually shunted in the water, it was kind of exhilarating.

Bye the way, I can’t recommend tacking a Div 2 board or an A class cat upwind in a tight channel with commercial traffic either, FWIW……