Lifting Foil on Trimaran Daggerboard- Martin vs Maserati

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Apr 3, 2017.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Lifting Foil on Trimaran Daggerboard-Martin vs Maserati

    From Martin here today: http://www.catsailingnews.com/2017/04/edmond-de-rothschild-gitana-17-maxi.html#more He says:

    " Good to see no central main foil (at least as shown for now) having a Trimaran using a central main foils seems ackward feature and can hurt non foiling mode as shown by Maserati. Macif is testing one thought for Gabart's next big Tri though.
    Trimaran offshore systems are yet to be consolidated, but I would go no mainfoil for the central hull."


    --------------------------------
    Maserati says:

    "First trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability on the horizontal loading-bearing surface of her centerboard, Maserati Multi70 brilliantly puts into practice Guillaume Vernier and his Team’s idea of flying on three resting points using a load-bearing centerboard, L-foil and a rudder instead of the two rudders and single foil adopted on America’s Cup cats.
    Giovanni Soldini and his Team are engaged in a new challenge as they endeavour to turn Maserati Multi70 into the first ocean-going flying trimaran. An ambitious project that spans not just Guillaume Vernier’s excellent work (he worked on the modifications to her appendages) but also over 4000 nautical miles of sailing clocked up by the Team this summer.
    The straight central daggerboard plays a revolutionary role in this new flying trim as the horizontal load bearing surface at its end generates lift, raising the boat out of the water. “When Maserati Multi70 rises up on her lateral foil and rudder, the daggerboard wing acts as a third resting point – the central and largest one”.
    Tests in wind of 40 knots have demonstrated that Maserati Multi70 is now much more stabilized and able to fly in conditions unthinkable before. Safely tackling also big seas."

    http://maserati.soldini.it/in-full-flight/
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    daggerboard foil

    From what I hear and read the discussion about the use of a daggerboard foil on a trimaran is going on all over the world right now,especially, in ocean racing trimaran design circles. It will be really cool to see if any of the new boats being finished or started now wind up with such a foil or buy into Martins argument.
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Daggerboard foil

    =======================

    Heard today from Martin of catsailingnews.com that there is no daggerboard foil being tested on the converted 24' Diam.
    Thanks to Martin for the heads up.....

    Picture by Alexis Courcoux--

    Converted Diam 24 Test Boat:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Found this on the Ultim site. Gitana may be the first Ultim tri with a lifting foil on the main hull . First, Guillaume Verdier is playing a major role in her design and then I found this: "Safran with foils under the floats and the central hull. L foils in the floats. A very aerodynamic and closed cockpits, which will integrate the mast, making the maneuver probably much more reassuring." Foils under the central hull? Always a question with Gtran........
    Also an article is around(I read it but can't find it) that implies that the recently released render of G17 is not accurate in its depiction of the lifting foils to be used on the actual boat.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Martin vs Gitana 17: New Gitana Maxi Foiling Tri launched | Catamaran Racing, News & Design http://www.catsailingnews.com/2017/07/new-gitana-maxi-foiling-tri-launched.html Martin, publisher of catsailingnews,says this in his excellent article on G17 today: " On the central foil, lets see its performance against Macif and others in lighter air". That brings up a major difference between Maserati and G17. Maserati is a converted MOD 70 with no extra sail area for lighter conditions to overcome the mainfoil drag. Since Gitana is a design from scratch by one of the top designers of this era I would expect her to have to power she needs to go fast in all conditions. I would also expect her to be able to change her righting moment by trimming the mainfoil for downforce as required allowing the boat to carry more sail than other boats in certain conditions and be able to keep that sail up longer before having to reef.
    Time will tell, but this is one extraordinary trimaran with capabilities beyond any existing Ultime.
    ======================
    Small sport tris such as the full size version of Fire Arrow(19.5') or the full size WOLF(15.5'-under development) will definitely be able to carry more sail than any conventional tri and carry it for longer before reefing or depowering becomes necessary. Thats a major advantage of the Fire Arrow Foil System, particularly on smaller tri's, as takeoff will be possible in as little as 5 knots of wind and the mainfoil will be automatically capable of adding RM as required.
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Since this thread was started two more Ultim tri's have adopted a foil configuration remarkably similar to that of Fire Arrow ,Gitana 17 and Maserati: Macif and Banque Pop !
    ---------------
    UPDATE-10/22/18: I guess Maserati has the last laugh based on the comments by Martin(in the first post) on the daggerboard foil since she won the Middle Sea Race by around 50 miles in various conditions. She faced rudder and mainsheet problems against a nearly identical boat the only difference being that Maserati is designed as a full flying foiler. And the daggerboard lifting foil sure didn't hurt her performance!

    UPDATE-10/24/18: Amazingly, one of my favorite sailing news sites- catsailingnews.com has not had any coverage of Maserati's significant win in the Middle Sea Race. Martin once blamed Maserati's poor performance on the mainfoil and yet when she performs spectacularly-not a word? Couldn't be because the foil is now proven to work in all conditions,could it?!
    See post#1 of this thread......
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Great article here-posted by Dolfiman: LIFT OFF…Designers VPLP on the ULTIME's Flying Time | Route du Rhum - Destination Guadeloupe https://www.routedurhum.com/en/news/230

    VPLP on the daggerboard foil:
    " On these big boats, when you ease a sail, it is a pain because it takes so long to grind it back in. But here you press a button and the angles of incidence change. And with the foil on the daggerboard you can use it to alter the flight according to the wind. If it builds, rather than easing the sheet you increase the righting moment by increasing the angle and conversely, as it eases you can reduce it and let it fly more."
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018

  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =================================
    UPDATE 1/20/19
    Turns out there was an adjustable T-foil on the daggerboard according to Vincent Prevost!!
    see Macif Ultim Trimaran- to be relaunched in July 2018 https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/macif-ultim-trimaran-to-be-relaunched-in-july-2018.60521/page-2#post-846666

    posts 21 and 22
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
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