GForce1500, White's Atlantic 48 or Hughes 48-50

I just learned of the harryproa 60 cruiser. It's very easy to build and affordable but in trying to learn more on these boats I find a lot of arguing between two different types of proas as to who is better and not much meat and potatoes.

Any comments on the offshore capabilities of Proas?

 

I've often seen the Rob Denney designed 60' Proa on it's mooring at St Kilda. It's a lot less bulky than a 60' cat and therefore should be less expensive and less building than a catamaran. There are some videos of it sailing in Port Phillip Bay, seems a solid cruising option with a very simple rig. I thought Rick the boats owner was a member here but cant see him on the members list.

https://youtu.be/mlXsBgY5TRI

 

Thanks, wish they would show a little more than that in the video. I sent an email asking for pics and a few other questions.

 

Jorge,
Corley refers to the "Melbourne" proa. It is Harryproa inspired but is custom made and differs significantly from the original designs. Rick advises on technical improvements.
.
The Harryproa 60' cruiser is a genuine Harryproa design being built in South America.

 

Ok, thanks, checked the link, impressive performance. It messes with my mind that there is no front to the boat, I guess it has two sets of nav lights.

Mr. Denny responded to my email that he is away but would get back to me later in the week. I think it's interesting but lean more toward a regular cat just because it would probably be easier to sell. Could change my mind though once I see the SA built boat.

 

Found this in case anyone else is interested. They say might launch August it's a 67 footer looks a little like I would want I think. https://www.facebook.com/luca.antara/photos

 

You can see the building of 15 m GForce in Holand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6c4gdMjpDQ

 

Sorry for the late response, been finishing off the lee hull of Bucket List. Answers/comments, in no particular order:

The Melbourne harryproa started as a set of plans for a Visionnarry 50'ter. http://harryproa.com/?page_id=1189 The owner decided to build it (mostly solo) from infused flat panels and change the layout. Rick Willoughby is very involved and has installed electric drives (cheaper than Torqueedo's) and has calculated and proved polars for the boat. http://harryproa.com/?p=129
The rig is indeed "simple", but the schooner rig on the C60 is arguably simpler. Plus it opens up the lee hull for storage, machinery or 2 single cabins and a shared toilet/shower.

Luca Antara (Portuguese 66'ter) is a one off, also with a lot of owner input. http://harryproa.com/?p=562

The C60 is a longer, lighter boat (less materials, lower loads) with lower labour content than those in the thread title. The boat building videos referred to in posts #1 and #22 are 3-4 times more labour intensive than the Intelligent Infusion used to build the C60. And the C60 labour is less physical (no torture boarding, most of it at waist height), cleaner (no filletting, tabbing or wet laminating), requires fewer boat building skills (no fiddly fitting of components or lining up frames) and has less waste. The time and material saved will easily offset any resale difference.

Building a mould does not reduce fairing. It transfers it to a more difficult concave surface rather than a convex one. Unless you build a plug, which is the same as fairing the hulls, but needs polishing.

Performance on paper is about weight, sail area (in light air) and length. At sea, while cruising, it is about what feels safe. Reducing sail at night, or due to squally weather or an ominous forecast is slow. A rig which can be instantly depowered and sit quietly on any point of sail by releasing 2 lightly loaded sheets will be sailed closer to it's potential resulting in higher daily averages and less stress on the crew.

Multiple helm stations are complex and/or less responsive. The harry solution has one wheel on a hinged pedestal. Outside is in the lee of the cabin with near all round visibility, including the sails without getting a stiff neck. Inside allows viewing of the sails and the horizon. Raised helms and deck sweeping headsails make keeping a proper lookout very difficult.

"Offshore capability" is about basic engineering (we use Etamax, have not had any problems relating to their specs), good building (won't be a problem for you) and the ease with which the boat can be sailed, thus reducing the crew fatigue and fear which are responsible for most sailing incidents. The unstayed rig is key to this, and I would strongly recommend it regardless of what boat you choose. The ability to raise, lower, reef and completely depower the rig in any breeze or point of sail is the difference between relaxed confidence and stressful worrying. No extras or foredeck work is an added bonus.

Shunting is also a big safety factor, particularly in big seas/winds, confined spaces and lee shores. Eliminating crash gybes, getting in irons and needing to maintain speed to tack makes for a much safer, less stressful sail.

Materials costs per pound of finished boat will be similar. Kit boats will cost more. Before you commit, get a detailed list of what is covered in the cost/materials number.

Ignore "suitable only for pro builders". Judging by your efforts on your power boat, you are more than qualified.

Proa nav lights are no big deal. Most have two sets with either a manual or automatic switch controlled by the rudder direction. Two bows takes a bit of getting used to, but come into their own when you want to deploy a sea anchor (no foredeck work, just drop it over the current stern, which then becomes the bow), gybe or tack in big seas (rotate the rig and rudders and sail off in the opposite direction) or manoeuvre out of tight spaces or groundings.

Ignore the arguing about proa types. It not only has no "meat or potatoes" it has no relevance to what you are looking for.

Anything I have missed or that needs more explaining, let me know.

rob

 

Hi, Thanks. Yes I saw this build, pretty cool. I would plan to infuse the bridge deck and both hulls in one shot but it's looking great. I hope to hear reports when it's launched.

Thanks, I found most of that info. Hoping to see the 65' launched. Should be close now. Want to see the pics and see how it does. I don't know anything about rigs but the unstayed one does sound better and neater.

Are any other boats using unstayed masts?

Thanks

 

Have you considered aluminium for a home build material?

The cost of marine grade 5083 alloy has halved since the crash of 2008, I phoned Aalco in the UK yesterday and got quoted £90 inc tax for a 8x4 sheet of 3ml; less than 6mm marine ply and a lot less than foam composite panels (?).

You can cut frames and sheet with ordinary power tools, assemble with tack welds and get in a professional aluminium welder to finish the job.

 

Yeah, that is a lot cheaper than core plus glass for sure but way out of my comfort zone. Don't know why more boats aren't made of aluminum and learning to tig is def on my bucket list. The new pulse welders with feed guns make it look easy.

Maybe on a future boat, this won't be the last. I plan on building, sailing and showing off the goods and getting commissions to build more

 

Its way out of my comfort zone too, as I've only got experience of building in steel. I posted on the forum about building a steel Cat design from Boden boats recently, but came to the conclusion that steel and cat don't really go together, although the all up weight was not far off a fully loaded GRP motorcat like the PDQ 34.

From what I've read an aluminium weld is 2-3 times faster than steel; that's where the skill is in maintaining a good bead.

So overall I think you could probably build an alloy boat a lot faster and cheaper than in composite , and it would be just as saleable after your cruising plans.

Anyone like to comment on how much cheaper and faster?

 

You would have to do a lot more framing with aluminum so I think it would weigh more and I don't think you could do it too much faster, especially if the composite one is built using molds... But anyway that is a whole new thread for experienced metal builders.

I think I have decided to go with the Proa 40/60 with some mods. I want to be half way between good performance and luxury lol. I still have to run these by Mr. Denny and his engineer but here is what I would like to see.



The mods are
1) I took away the 2 steps to main hull, just need one.
2) I made the beds run lengthwise so that I can extend the salon all the way to front and back of bridge deck. If the beds are too wide to leave a little passage then they will overlap into the salon but that will fall under the built in sofa and navigation table. If that still won't work than a little hull flare starting up about 36" will be needed.
3) The salon is now quite long and wide enough for a big sofa which converts to a double berth over the table.
4) The inside helm is in the center of the room and will look like something out of star trek.
5) The kitchen has a nice triangle shape to it and lots of counter space and everyone is included.
6) The long hull I left pretty much the same way
7) I don't like the current daggerboard/rudder setup and am going to suggest an alternative once I get it straight in my mind.
8) The deck between hulls is precious real estate that I think can be made really luxurious. For example the purple are seats/lounges. The lounges in the center section are raised because the dingy is stored underneath.
9) The dingy is a 15 cat which holds 12' kayaks and other toys in each hull.
10) I drew the outside helm to one end and a table to the other but what I really want is a raised helm in the center so the ropes can come across elevated. As they are now they are ruining my party deck space. I need to talk with Mr. Denny about this because not sure if the booms would rotate around and hit the helm ... I think they rotate outward but not sure.
11) Then I have about 200 sq ft of roof over the salon for a nice solar array.
12) I really like the integration of the Torquedo Hybrid drive system. It goes with the ultra sleek look I am envisioning but I wish they had rotatable electric pods. I would two on the long hull one at each end.
13) Daggerboards are usually only used (as I understand it) when running into the wind so I'd like to keep them separate from the rudders because I think the kickup system is too bulky for those oversized rudders and it detracts from the look.

The fridge I need for sure in the main salon but the freezer and larger pantry along with all batteries and genset would go in the long hull. I would have ac in the bedrooms and salon because I plan on building and selling these boats and I think that is going to be a requirement.

All said, I get a nicer living place than I have now, on land, and I think performance will still be okay, have to add up the extra weight. So that is where I am at now and I have about 6 months to refine this.

 

Two things have been bothering me about the Proa. 1) The daggerboard rudder system - 2) The drives and I think I have a solution for the drives.

I like the total integration of the Torquedo Deep Blue Hybrid system, If I am an example of the consumer, I like to see engineered solutions, not work arounds and the Torquedo system gives me that feel ... but how to implement them in a relatively simply way on a proa. I think it could be done using those heavy duty cogged drive belts.

The hull draft on the proa is only 18", not too many huge boats can run in that shallow of water especially with drives hanging off the bottom.

However since the proa is a uni-directional boat it has fine bows/stern which would allow a swing down belt driven prop to be kept above the bottom of the hull.

Some advantages are no holes below the waterline, protected prop, easy maintenance, light -no gears in lower unit, easy deployment/stowing, power through very shallow water, very short swing arm - about 18". One motor on each hull takes care of steering!! I really like this!

My drawings are just to give an idea, an engineer would have to correct and spec it all. In a pinch I know I could do this myself though, it's not a high speed motor boat we are talking about. Things like a shroud would not be a huge deal either

 

That is an original idea. The disadvantages are weight in bows and an expensive "crash box". I am also afraid that at some speed the prop may be very hard to pivot back up unless one could use the water flow over a small pivotable foil to coax it to turn out of the water.

The alternative is to use the tender cat as the prop sled for trolling and in addition a small drop down fully rotating "bow" thruster for closed quarter maneuvering.

Would there not be a way to double the use the helm station of the tender cat also as the exterior helm of the boat by hooking the right lines to the tender steering system when docked in the deck?