Any skiff designers?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by TimClark, Jan 26, 2006.

  1. zerogara
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    zerogara build it and sail it

    CT249, chill out! I didn't call you any names to over-react like this.
    An "International 14' Skiff" is a term in itself, very well defined by the I14 association, skiff alone could be a river rowboat!
    A "1996 Formula 1 car" is very much specified by the rules of the year on what it can be.
    Now take a 16' 8" "boat" whose hull weighs about 110lbs, carbon 8' wings, 60 sq.feet of sails, an 8' pole, which can attain speeds much higher than of true wind. What do you call it? Who cares? It is what it is!
    As I said, there is no simple definition of what a sailing skiff is and how it differs from a sailing dinghy! Trends are not definitions.

    And one more thing! I think 18' skiffs are gorgeous boats! While foiling moths are AhhhhhhUUUUuuuu-GLY!
     
  2. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Ahhugly

    This is ugly?
    03DU9562B.jpg
    Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/photos/2005_sirs/03DU9562B.jpg Changed:11:03 PM on Monday, December 26, 2005
    Surely you jest......
    -----------------------
    As to the subject of this thread I designed and built the aeroSKIFF™ 16
    ( http://www.monofoiler.com ) which is probably not an aussie type skiff(maybe a Moth type skiff? whatever!)--see the specs-though it is quite powered up and being rebuilt to correct some deficiencies in the first tests. It's being converted from a double hander to a singlehander(you can take someone with you and still foil) , the main foil angle of incidence is being made adjustable while sailing , relatively small buoyancy pods are being being added at an increased beam of 14 feet. A sliding bench seat is being added to allow the crew to get way out w/o a trapeze. In future I would defintely change the rig to a 185 sq.ft. camber induced sail with an unstayed mast.
    If I was to do it again I might do the hull differently and , in fact, Eric Sponberg and I have worked together on a singlehanded aeroSKIFF™ 14 that has a double ended narrow hull with and unstayed 130+sq.ft. main only rig with buoyancy pods. Unfortunately, we have not found the help we need to go forward...
    The foiler "skiffs" such as the Moth, and hopefully including these boats or boats like them at some point, have the potential to be much more efficient than "traditional " skiffs which allows them -at -least in the Moth case so far- to be
    very fast with less sail area.
     
  3. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Zero, I'll chill. Sorry.

    Without going into too much detail......

    Yes, I was joking about F1, but the point is that there are lots of ways the two words "formula" and "one" can be combined in English.....yet the two words applied to racing cars DO have a specific meaning.

    Same with skiff.....it's a common english term in the dictionary, but when applied to small racing sailboats, from about 1920 to the 1990s it meant just a few classes, all from Australia to NZ. I've spent months researching international printed sources for a project, and not once has "skiff" in that period meant anything else, as applied to small racing sailboats.

    The dictionary meaning doesn't seem to be relevant - same as the dictionary contains no mention of "Formula One" or "GT", yet the F1 designers and drivers know EXACTLY what that means in a motor racing context.

    In terms of small fast racing sailboats, skiff DOES mean something. EVERY mention I can find over 70+ years (in this context) is related to boats that were officially titled "skiff", just like the Int 14 is now officially titled "skiff". It was never a term just thrown around as an adjective - for many years it was VERY precise with just a single class in a grey area.

    I can find only a single trace of anything other than a "12 foot Skiff" (official title of the class), "16 foot skiff", (ditto), "18 foot skiff" (ditto) being called "skiff" in the context of small high performance racing sailboats in this period. The single trace of ambiguity from about 1920 to the '80s was the Australian (not International) 14, which has some common history and attributes (ie development class, high righting moment from crew weight, rig larger than dinghy of equivalent LOA, largely sailed by clubs affiliated with SKIFF associations which financially supported the classes) but has some differences (ie no advertising until recently, carried sail number not logo, only one rig, no $$$$ support from skiff clubs).

    Later on, the term became a bit looser, with one class that had many of the skiff attributes calling itself a skiff. Then in the late '80s, the floodgates opened as marketing execs decided that "skiff" was a cool label.

    But for decades, the term WAS specific and IMHO we should respect that history.

    It's notable that when I have interviewed most of the world's top dinghy and/or skiff designers, not one of them has said that a skiff is the same as a dinghy. Their definitions may differ, but Bieker, Bethwaite, Morrison, Nash, Walsh, etc etc etc etc ALL see skiffs and dinghies as being different sorts of craft.

    If the world's best dinghy and/or skiff designers see skiffs as being different from dinghies, surely their opinion should hold some weight.

    So too perhaps should the opinion of all the guys who sailed the classes that were the only small racing sailboats to get the skiff label from 1920 to the '90s. Things only began to get murky when "skiff" became a term of marketing bull in the 1990s.

    Personally, I reckon the boat you describe may very well be a skiff, or a skiff type. That's because (assuming you meant more than 60' of sail :) ) it has many of the things (RM, SA/L, etc) that have FOR THE PAST 70+ YEARS defined a skiff, and only a skiff.......

    So there ARE things that differentiate a dinghy and a skiff. Exactly what they are is in dispute, but AFAIK no major player in the game disputes that there is a difference.
     
  4. zerogara
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    zerogara build it and sail it

    Congratulations, very interesting design.
    I especially liked the idea of the mast head! The tramps look slightly massive and I hope you can reduce their weight in the future, mayby by molding carbon tubes into curved ones to achive the desired result.
    With an unstayed rig you end up overbuilding the mast base area and still have an ineficient but forgiving rig. I like the idea of taking the shrouds out to the forward wing ends, thus reducing the tensions, and add spreaders and lower stays as well that you can tune the mast better.

    It looks packed with good ideas though! How stable is it and how hard is it to get it going?
     
  5. zerogara
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    zerogara build it and sail it

    CT249: I have no idea where the border line is and have wondered. LDC racing sailboats with their RS line seem to be a good example to look at, as their line of RS200/300/400/600/700/800 definetely cover the spectrum. The 200s and 400s definetely are in the dinghy territory to me, the 600/700/800 seem to be skiffs. The 300 is more of a puzzle.
    Maybe it has to do with righting moment and if you have to be too careful where you position your self so not to tip it over then it is a skiff.
     
  6. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    aeroSKIFF™

    Zero, the boat is a handfull and not what you could call "stable". I'm adding the buoyancy pods so that you don't pay with a capsize for every screw up. The boat gets more stable the faster it goes due to the foils but has only really partialy foiled due to the aforementioned inability to adjust the angle of incidence of the main foil.It was a big mistake on my part not to incorporate this initially -I let it go even though the system to do it was already designed-I was just in too much of a hurry. I'm not completely done with manual altitude control either-I want to play with it a lot before I give up 100% on it. It may be beneficial in waves where it would allow the boat to "platform"(not react to waves) rather than have the wand "contouring"(trying to follow the wave surface) the boat which can be problematic in short steep waves.Of course, the boat is structurally designed to jump but I'm a ways from trying that!
    It's a lot of fun and a fairly good test platform. Once the rebuilding is complete they'll be more pix.
     
  7. TimClark
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    TimClark Senior Member

    Lorsail, I think that's an awesome design. If you wanted the boat to "jump" waves wouldn't you have the chance of breaking the foils when they hit the surface of the water. Also, if you were out and the boat "jumped" wouldn't you have the chance of death-rolling because of the weight and the fact that there's nothing supporting the boat. Just a few things to think about.

    Tim
     
  8. zerogara
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    zerogara build it and sail it

    So, Tim!
    :)
    We have established a small circle of dinghy/skiff interested parties. What are you thinking of designing/building?
    I've been developing a 14' dinghy on an exercise to achieve high performance with as simple as possible rig. Single trapeze 2 person, single spreader, asymmetric with about 95 sq.f main, 35 Jib, 130 asym.
    All effort has been put on the deck to make life aboard simple and to minimize the time from trailer to all up and go and back home, thus maximizing the fun.
    Also I have used small wings but have made them in a way that the boat can be sailed without them in light winds.
    This way I have maximized the range of conditions and skill. Every single simplification though takes a little speed away and it is hard to finalize and even harder to find critics to give feedback with various levels of skill.
    Simple dagger board, no foils, simple swing rudder etc etc.
     
  9. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    jumping

    Tim, since I haven't jumped yet I don't know all the answers. But the whole boat including the foils is designed and engineered for jumping.The foil engineering was done thru Fastacraft in Australia.
    The shape is like a giant windsurfer because it is a foiler designed to take off in about 8 knots of wind and the hull should not normally encounter waves. The shape allows a large amount of dynamic lift forward to prevent stuffing it on re-entry from a jump. I'm more concerned about me breaking from a bad jump than I am about the boat or foils coming apart.It will be an experience to remember and once we get it right(IF we get it right) it should be a lot of fun.
    A guy I know was experimenting with foils on his I14. He had the mainfoil on the daggerboard and it was in the trunk so that it couldn't move aft. He didn't think there was any reason to fit it so that it couldn't move forward at the bottom. WRONG. He took off in a decent breeze and the hydrofoil worked sort of like a sail with a forward component to it's lift. Bang! the whole daggerboard and foil pivoted forward lifting the boat and two crew so energetically that the boat came completely out of the water and pitched over BACKWARDS! So the foils have the power to jump-it's just a question of developing the technique(and technology) to re-enter safely....
    ====================
    Zero, can you post and sketches/numbers for your boat?
     
  10. TimClark
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    TimClark Senior Member

    I think we should team up with some other people on here and start pitching around ideas for a good skiff. Lorsail, if you wanna contribute some ideas that would be awesome!

    Tim
     
  11. TimClark
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    Location: Fairfield County, CT

    TimClark Senior Member

    Yeah the first thing I noticed when I was looking at the picture of the boat was that it looked like a beefed up windsurfer. Engineering the boat and foils to re-enter the water will be tricky. Good Luck with it.
     
  12. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    "Skiff"(foiler)

    Tim, it's Doug not lorsail-that was a mistake when I first registered.
    My suggestion to you would be to give serious consideration to building a Moth, learning to sail it on foils(ideal if your weight is 145-160lb.s) and then design a slightly larger version of the Moth that could carry two people. You could do it as a learning excersise and boy would you learn. If you studied foiler design theory and small sailboat design theory while you were doing the Moth so much the better. I would strongly suggest that you make a couple of modifications-I'll help you and I'm sure John Ilett would for the experimental value:1) make the rudder and the daggerboard retractable.It's a ***** to have to wade way out to install foils and so (relatively) simple to make this change; 2) Add small buoyancy pods to make learning easier-it will help you transition into foiling sooner.
    I wouldn't buy into the idea of "learning to sail a skinny Moth w/o foils first"-it is probably NOT necessary if you use pods.There is discussion on this subject on the Moth forum.You would learn so much in an area of small boat design that you probably wouldn't be taught in any school and that would equip you to become an expert in monofoilers -a position that will be a good one to be in as time goes by. This is just the begining of the revolution in sailing represented by the bi-foil monofoiler and the applications are virtually unlimited.
     
  13. zerogara
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    zerogara build it and sail it

  14. Toby P
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Toby P Junior Member

    Doug,

    Congrats on bringing your idea to fruition! Does the mast top device allow you to bend the mast whilst retaining a full height jib? You said earlier that you don't have to insert the foils from underneath - how have you done this, how do the foils fit through the centreboard slot?

    Toby
     

  15. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    aeroSKIFF™

    Thanks Toby-there's stil a lt to be done. It's beingmodified now for therreasons I mentiond earlier.
    In my opinion you can't have a beach sailable foiler(I don't mean surf beach) with out being able to retract the foils. My foils retract until the mainfoil hits the bottom of the boat and until the rudder hits the bottom of the rudder trunk/cassete. Both are easily done from the cockpit just like normal boards except that they have to be firmly held. The daggerboard is pinned the rudder is cleated-well. The trunks simply have to be made to very close tolerances.
    The daggerboard trunk is close at the bottom and more open at the top so that the angle of incidence of the whole board /foil can be changed on the water-at least that was the theory. I thought I had it right the first time and it would have taken another couple of days to finish the adjustable mechanism so I skipped it. Bad mistake! In the first trials the board need another degree or two to takeoff early enough and I couldn't change the setup.
    There are pictures of the boat sitting on the trailer on the site.
     
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