paddlewheeler recuction drive

Discussion in 'Propulsion' started by xxdroom, Oct 30, 2014.

  1. Dave T
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    Dave T Senior Member

    The reason the paddle wheel is small is because he doesn't have enough gear reduction. Bolting paddles to the differential of a truck rear axle would definitely not have enough gear reduction you would still need about another 10 to 1 reduction. Before you can decide for sure how much reduction you actually need you need to know for sure what diameter the paddles will be how many blades and how wide they will be. You need to do a lot of research on paddle wheels, there design, limitations and what is the most efficient speed for paddles of various sizes before you can accurately determine what type of drive system and gearing will be best. Remember your original question was how to reduce the speed from 4000 RPM to 60 RPM
     
  2. Dave T
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    Dave T Senior Member

    Google paddle wheel design there's tons of info available.
     
  3. xxdroom
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    xxdroom Junior Member

  4. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    You lose some power in the hydraulic system though.
    Hydraulics can be bad for parasitic losses pumping the oil around.
    So it would work, but you would have lower fuel economy.
     
  5. AndySGray
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    AndySGray Senior Member

    :idea: I had a interesting idea on that, given your original penchant for large diameter paddles. :idea:

    How about hub-less, hydraulic, rim-driven paddles. :cool:

    This could get very avant-garde and sexy as you could have an observation window or bubble in the center of the paddle or even have passengers embark and disembark through the 'hub'

    The point is that if you drive the rim rather than the center, gearing issues become largely irrelevant - the paddle turns at the rim speed of the drive motor (give or take), so large diameter paddles are no more difficult than smaller ones.

    OK so for a 16' diameter paddle with 2' wide and 1' deep blades,
    You would start with a simple tube 13'6 diameter 2' wide and this becomes part of the hull, would need to be fairly strong - probably steel but any engineering company can make such on a set of rollers in a matter of minutes. Maybe have a deck at 4' up - mount the drive motor under there

    On the outside of the hub, at say 6" and 18" across you fasten pairs of idler wheels, probably 20+ sets.

    The 'chassis' for the paddle wheel would be a pair of 14' hoops of C section channel - flat side out (blades attach here) and the channel side towards the hub - now you see where the idler wheels will run.

    One of the hoops will need gear teeth - CNC laser cut by a profile cutting company out of 1/2 or 3/4 plate (maybe go stainless). Engages with a cog on a hydraulic motor. If the gearing is wrong the ONLY change is a bigger or smaller cog on the hydraulic motor paddlewheel and hub remain the same.

    Maybe possible to actually use a pneumatic tire rather than a cog but I think it would probably slip too easily.

    :D


    My favourite Paddlesteamer, the Waverley, is not well behaved in anything other than flat seas and gentle breezes - She's run aground, damaged (or destroyed) numerous docks, and often the captain excersises prudence and cancels trips leaving passeners standing on the dock, if conditions are less than perfect.

    You STILL haven't stated your intended use (it's bad form to leave those trying to help you guessing all the variables) - but for ocean, good contol is mandatory and unless your paddles are independant you'll have issues.

    By having each paddle independent you'll get a bit more control, but if you have hydraulic power - Bow and Stern thrusters get real easy to do too.

    Around the middle of the 19th century when prop tech was in it's infancy there were many ocean going ships with a pair of side wheels, a prop (with a nice flow of water across a rudder) and also several masts for backup sails.

    Is there a reason not to have a Prop too? The steering and control with a rudder/prop pair is much better, plus it's a good 'get U home' backup.
     
  6. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    I had thought of that too, I know some rides at carnivals like ferris wheel uses a car tire to move it, but in that case you don't really rely on it having perfect traction, it's not always wet, and if it slips lots, its not a big deal.

    That being said, theres no reason that a little pressure couldn't be applied to the drive tire against the wheel. Just have a 6" wide track on the paddle wheel that the tire drives against. Most of those big truck axles are rated for 40,000 lbs, so 20,000 lbs per side, if the tire is pushing on the paddle wheel with 20,000 lbs of force, I doubt it would take more than some checker plate to get some good grip and work perfect.

    The half axle with the drive tire connects to the transmission with u-joints, so there should be a little wiggle room to allow it to move to and away from the paddle.

    I wonder how much energy would be lost in the soft rubber of the tire though?

    I find it weird that were talking about a 100 ft long boat, and a propulsion system that would probably cost 2500$ lol
     
  7. xxdroom
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    xxdroom Junior Member


    a ocean scuba............ paddle wheeler .
     
  8. xxdroom
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    xxdroom Junior Member

    you red my mind .

    I thought of that tooo in fact I`m thinking that is the drive I am going to use.
    but ........ needed to get all of the other variables.......

    a live axel 2 1/2" dia. would do it .
    the only problem I would think is left is to get the correct ratio for the reduction on the automatic transmission out put shaft for the h.p. &rpm .
    a V' BELT REDUCTION PULLEY APERATIS .............

    ITS ALL WAY LESS THAN 2500.00

    WHAT ABOUT SPRAYING PICK-UP TRUCK BED LINER STUFF ON THE CHECK PLATE TO KEEP THE GRIP UP ?
    OR POP RIVITS /? HA.
    THIS DRIVE SET UP IS INDESTRUCTABLE ..........WOULD & WILL LAST FOR EVER .
    YOU JUST HAVE TOP KNOW WHAT SIZE THE WHEEL DRIVE PLATE SHOULD BE........ I WOULD HAVE 1`ft. CIRCLE WITH SPOKES OF COURSE .
    THAT HAS A SUPER HEAVY DUTY KEY WAY IN THE LIVE AXEL .........

    AUTOMOTIVE 1 TON 12 BOLT AXEL ENDS IS THE WAY TO GO TO FINISH UP THE WHEELS .

    I`M ALSO THINKING A FIBERGLAS........ CARBON FIBER WHEEL FRAMEWORK ........
    UN-BRAKEABLE TO COMPLETE IT ALL .

    I AM A FIBERGLAS MOLD MAKER.......... DONE LOTS OF GLAS & CARBON FIBER WORK..... SINCE 1966 .......... WORKED BUILDING CALIF. SKI BOATS SINCE 1976.......

    I AM THE OWNER / CEO OF...... Reef Station Catamaran Company since 1981 .
    I`m coast guard approved & licenced to build some very large catamarans my largest is 106' with a 36ft beam , its $75.000 launched . I`m 58 years old..... been there a while .

    I saw the wheel drive above years ago......... 20 years ago & I was of course interested in paddle wheelers........I always though it would work.......... but one has to investigate it all.
    the tire drive I SAW was on a fair ride called the scrambler...... it will work !!

    so is the tire driven side paddle wheeler the one to super refine & give to the world as the best & most inexpensive drive for the side wheeler?
    the drive shaft has to have a reduction belt drive with "V" BELTS like 5 `v belts & a list of engines ford 302 351 etc & chevy 350 396 427 etc
    and their torque rpm & hp rpm..........to calculate the correct rpm reduction of the output shaft ........because a 300 hp ford 302 has high rpm of the output shaft that must be reduced before the final driveshaft reaches the drive tire .
    slow but powerful reduced rpm to the drive check wheel .

    the drive shaft & all of the tire drive ratios need to be worked out........ we should make a little book on this subject .

    need drive tire ratio, main large axel drive plate ratio, drive shaft & reduction ratios .

    its simple, easy for the common man to mfg. & `very inexpensive to HOME MAKE .

    I am going with the drive tire drive unit for my side paddle wheelers .
     
  9. xxdroom
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    xxdroom Junior Member

    The Latest Design .

    With the latest design of the fair amusment ride resign....... the rear end housing is eliminated .

    You have a large flat base to have the drive shaft tire to turn the paddles with.............

    A .........................
    2 1/2" S.S. ( stainless steel axel for you that want quality materials) .
    with the axel end plates off of a 12 bolt ford & other 1 ton axel, machine cut & welded to the stainless steel axel will be plenty strong enough to drive the paddles or you can use an axel end plate/s of of a heavy duty truck..... but when the design that you decide on is layed out........... remember that weight is critical of the turning drive......... the lighter & stronger the better .
     
  10. xxdroom
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    xxdroom Junior Member

    Don`t You Think ?

    Don`t you think that 4 drive tires should be IN-FRAMED around the tire drive
    plate 180 degrees across from each other ?

    to keep the drive plate square ?
    that is what I am going to do.............

    like I said I knew about the fair ride drive many years ago.......
    I always wondered how those small electric motors powered big rides !

    I won`t go into electric power on this drive subject..........
    I`m satisfied with with the V-12 JAGUAR . PURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR ! .
     
  11. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    For a side wheeler, I don't think theres a better possible way than using a tractor transmission.
    The tractor has large slow moving tires already, so gearing would be perfect.
    It's made to tug and pull and work hard all day, so duty cycle is matched very well.

    This would be the simplest most reliable system, IMHO.
    No pulleys, chains, or gears to mess with.

    All you would have to do, is make your side paddle wheels with stems, and weld the end of the stem to an old tractor wheel hub pattern, then put a large bearing block at the edge of the boat, to take the forces from the wheel.

    That is my advice for the side wheeler, go buy a tractor, with whatever size and type of engine you want, and just go from there.

    You could even find out if you can get a diff lock for it, and put a brake on each side, so you can unlock the diff, lock one side, and use that to manuever the boat around very well.

    The tire drive might work, but only on a stern wheeler. For a side wheeler, that is extra equipment. extra hassle.

    Just use a tractor. Minimal modifications. The tractor transmission will do the job more reliably, and very low maintenance.
     
  12. xxdroom
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    xxdroom Junior Member

    arm wrassel

    I`ll arm wrestle you for it.
    one advantage is that the frictiondrive design ( fair ride drive ) I way lighter than the tractor & extras of the tractor drive.
    although the tractor trans......... is low geared & strong , you are right about that ...... the one problem with the tractor drive is the engine hp. & low rpm that the tractor already turns ...... how could you hook up a ford or chevy to the tractor transmission .

    I`ll have to investigate the huge tractor pull tractor sites to see if I can get some info on how they reduce those nitro fuel burning hemi`s !
     
  13. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member


    I'm saying to use the tractor transmission on it's own, with the tractor engine.
    Just replace the wheels with paddles and extension tubes with pillow block bearings.

    The only modification that might be needed is to either weld the differential solid, or install a locker.
     
  14. xxdroom
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    xxdroom Junior Member

    harp .

    yep...... sounds good .

    the more I think about what is availiable.........& I don`t want to harp on the tire drive unit......... I think that with the light ness of the tire drive & the simplicity of the overall unit .........it seems the best way to go & one gets a lot of bang for the buck .
     

  15. xxdroom
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    xxdroom Junior Member

    need.

    need all new ratios for the friction drive unit.
    formerly known as THE TIRE DRIVE .

    MOSTLY THE RPM OF THE ENGINE OUTPUT SHAFT AS IT IS AFTER IT EXITS THE TURBO HYDRO TRANSMISSION OR THE FORD AOD .
    OR ANY OTHER AUTOMATIC.

    OR EVEN A 4-5-6 SPEED MANUAL SHIFT .

    AFTER THAT HAS BEEN DETURMENED (/?)
    THE BIG WHEEL MUST BE RATIO-ED TO THE DRIVEN TIRE .

    WEATHER YOU USE GO CART TIRES OR 13, 14, 15 OR 16" TIRES .
    WITH SPRING LOADED LITTLE GO CART TIRES(4) THAT KEEP THE BIG DRIVE PLATE FLAT......... THAT WOULD BE PLENTY LIGHT .

    OR YOU COULD EVEN USE SKATEBOARD WHEELS (MAYBE STEEL WHEELS) TO KEEP THE BIG DRIVE WHEEL IN CHECK.... THE BIG WHEEL IS CENTERED ON THE 2 1/2" LIVE AXEL ......... (side paddle application)

    so ...........

    the only thing that needs to be ratio-ed is the big drive wheel, the friction drive wheel & the out put shaft rpm .

    I want to do a whole page on this subject.
    make it a STANDARD LIKE THE MULTIPULCATION TABLE IN SCHOOL FOLDERS THAT WE ALL GOT IN SCHOOL .

    SO OTHERS CAN DO THE SAME THING .
     
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