Which wood would you use?

LP, I'm thinking that I'm understanding your comments. Although I may not have responded to them very well.

I haven't made a final decision on this yet. So I'm still open to which way I will go on this.

I like the idea of 100% encapsulation. But that has it's own pros and cons. There are also many different ways to approach that.

I'm thinking that I may go the route of allow the wood to get wet and then deal with drying it after each use. This of course also has it pros and cons too.

So at this time I haven't yet tackled this particular issue. So I'm open to ideas on that. I think it's too early to consider those ideas because I haven't yet decided on exactly how I will build the boat or even what joints I will use between the boards.

My thinking is that once I have decided on a construction method, then I can consider the best sealant methods for that type of construction.

This is my thinking too. This is why I'm holding off dealing with this issue until I've decided on the construction method and materials. After that I'll be in a better position to seek advice on how to seal that type of hull.

I'm pretty sure that I'll be going with the solid wood boards however. But even then I haven't yet decided on how I'm going to join them. (i.e. shiplap, cove and bead, tongue and groove, etc.)

I think once I get the wooden hull drawn up complete with construction method and materials then I'll be in a better position to move forward to asking how it should be sealed.

 

Did I say, "breast?" How Freudian!

Beast! I meant to say, "Beast!" LOL

Wow, this is on a whole different scale than I had imagined. Even one of them will be a nice project. Best wishes!

 

One at a time is how they will be built.

And yes I will be very pleased after having built just one of them.

The beauty of it is that after building one I could potentially stop there.

But I like to dream big.

My dreams are often other people's nightmares.

There's not much I can do about that.

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but I was curious about the cedar utility poles with creosote so I did a little checking. Yes cresote is bad so you don't want to inhale the stuff, but I was suprised to learn it is not a carcinogen. Also, the toxity level degrades with age. (wikipedia, there are several types of creosote and long term health study was done on people who produced or applied the product)
My primary question was how deep into the pole dos the creosote penetrate? So then what wood do you have left to work with that is none contaminated? I didn't get a straight answer on this, but I found this study from Canada that explores the re-use of treated utility ploes; http://wmr.sagepub.com/content/14/3/263.abstract
Bottom line basically says on average you get 15% for cedar shingles and 35% for sawn wood products. If you want to deal with special precautions for the saww dust and only getting 35% of useable lumber from each pole I guess its plausible if you are getting the poles super cheap or free. None of this says anything about splitting.
Anyway, I though it was worth looking into.

 

Hi SD
there is an E value (formaldehyde content) , what is it in your okoume 5/8" you found ?
WBP of course ... BS what ? That is going to be hard to bend !

 

The plywood I was looking at for $50 a sheet is only 4 mm thick. Just over 1/8 inch. It would be extremely easy to bend. Especially for my project where there are no major curves.

I'm not sure if I'll go that route or not, but it's something I now have to consider. That would basically be for finishing. I would still need to design the boat with boards and then just cover it with that thin plywood basically to eliminate the seams between the boards. It would also give the hull added strength so I could use thinner boards as a foundation.

I'll be considering that along with the idea of potentially using cloth glass fabric. I'll only go with one or the other, not both. Either glass or plywood.

Maybe neither.

I'm not really considering the finishing details at this time. I was mainly considering which base woods I should build with.

I already found my answer. White Pine and White Oak.

So I got the answer I was seeking in this thread.

The question asked in this thread has already been answered to my satisfaction.

@ CloudDiver,

I've decided not to go the utility pole route. But you make some good points the ceder within the poles may not be as contaminated as the outer layers.

But I don't even want to bother going down that road. I feel better about using virgin timber.

So I'm going with pure natural White Pine and White Oak as the build materials. Maybe some cherry and maple tossed in for gingerbread trim topside.

I know that in the end I'd rather be able to say that these boats were built from trees I cut on my own property. That's always a nice conversation piece.

I'd rather work with virgin timber anyway. Working with used creosote utility poles has a myriad of issues that I'd rather not become involved with.

 

that is interesting to know, because that was the justification for banning its use. More likely it was just an allegation at the time, and some big chemical company lobbied to have their "safe" treatment compound the only treatment allowed by law. that is how big corporations stay profitable, they get congress to outlaw their compatition, rather than making a better product.

 

There have been some allegations that the simple act of sawing certain cedars released some toxic fumes. Not from creosote but from the cedar chemistry itself.

The world is full of sneaky bad stuff like when machining Titanium, exposure to ozone generation from UV reactors and more.

 

The current world is over run with "chicken littles".
they all suffer a common illness, Libido Dominandi

 

Not sure if Wikipedia is always reliable, but it gave a breakdown of various types of creosote. The type commonly used to preserve cedar utility poles and railroad ties is derived from coal, there are other types that are more funky.

 

Just a little History on creosote poles. Hitler asked Albert Speer, the architect of the third reich, to design the buildings with materials that would last 1000 years. Stone masonry was a given with granite and marble at the top of the list, but creosote treated wood made number 3 on the list due to its use at the Parthenon in Greece as well as still usable wood items found in the Pharaohs' Tombs.
A good recipe for creosote is coal tar, potash and diesel fuel, with a healthy dose of used motor oil added in. 2 55 gallon drums are welded end to end with the bottom cut out of the top one and filled with creosote to soak railroad ties for 2 weeks minimum.
If I had a large, sea-going wooden craft I would love to have a creosote bottom, as I am sure many early Explorers, Pirates and Merchants had on their boat, in some recipe or the other.
I am surprised it is not a carcinogen, the old joke among people who worked with it on a daily basis was "It will cause cancer on a rock". I know from experience you get a quick rash on the inside of your arms or wherever the weeping-timber touches you.

 

SD,

Here is an old thread to a build that another member did. Unfortunately, there are only a half dozen build photos. His construction method was more of a traditional type, but he also used modern sealants. The links are unfortunately broken now so there are only a few tidbits and photos about his build.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-building/loudoun-44308.html

 

That's a beautiful boat. I LOVE IT. That my style in terms of artistic appeal. It's almost like something out of a fairytale.

How long is that boat?

I'm surprised it doesn't sit lower in the water, it looks heavy.

Look at this photo of it. It's almost sitting on the surface of the water. It must be pretty light actually.



That's a great build!

This boat is far more ambitious than mine. (or at least more ambitious than one of my tugs)

My tugs are going to be really simple to build. They are basically just 2 foot deep rectangular barges with flat decks. There's no fancy curves to deal with. The cabins and gingerbread top side won't be too hard to build either.

I was thinking of just putting railings around them, but maybe I should go ahead and put actual sides up about 2 feet. That would give us a little more protection in the case of unexpected waves.

I'm still trying to figure out where the actual waterline will be on my barges. I'm working on trying to find software that will show me this information. Or maybe I could just type the equations into a spreadsheet.

Where would I find the equations to calculate how deep a wooden barge like mine would sit in the water? I want to know where to expect the water line to be.

The Loudoun sits way higher in the water than I would have guessed just looking at it sitting on the trailer. I hope that's the case for my barges too.

 

Working with creosote treated wood is like working with bubble gum coated wood. It is a real sticky, smelly mess.

 

Do not mix white oak and white pine. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum strength wise and just aren't going to play well together. The oak is going to do whatever it wants, and the pine is helpless to stop it. That's not how hulls need to work. If you have sufficient pine to be choosy, it should do for you purposes. Cruise for east or NE slope trees that grow slower and denser. Season in largish pieces and resaw to thickness after a year or so. Know the grain orientation you want to end up with for particular jobs and set aside the biggest and best for quarter-sawn pieces. Choose your cutting season as well. Unlike some trees, you shouldn't girdle before felling because WP is too rotty. Just fell after the sap has gone out of it. Don't use any part of any tree that has any rot at all. Store carefully, well stickered, up off the ground a couple feet, and use some heat if you can. You'll want to up the screw size by one vs better planking material. Basically, that means upping the entire scantling list by about 1/8 for anything that gets screwed together. Most of the really traditional ways of treating these hulls are just not going to happen in today's world. I think you are stuck with epoxy of some sort, and it would be a huge benefit if the boat didn't stay in the water for more than 2/3 the time - say ten days in and 4 out under a roof where it can dryout a bit. Since you don't really have an issue with interior volume, I'd build the entire boat out of it. The frames have to be large to stop things from shifting around as the dry planking takes up water. The frames can be made either green or dry. Green is better for spikes.

Where in the USA are you? What sort of mill do you have? Can you afford to be really choosy and only use 20% of what you mill for the boats? Are the trees plantation grown, because that's not the sort you want.