Neglected Kells 23 sailboat... advice sought

Discussion in 'Boatbuilding' started by retrosub, Jun 10, 2014.

  1. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    It's big job, what you're attempting, but you'll be very rewarded after she's splashed. Think light but strong, so you don't overly burden the boat.
     
  2. retrosub
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Ithaca, NY

    retrosub Junior Member

    Here's a sketch of what I'm thinking.

    The cuddy is moved forward and sits about 6" higher than what was on there before. I understand this is more windage, but this make 5'1" of headroom, and my wife is 5'. So... I get major points if I raise it. The construction should be lighter, anyway (1/4" plyt with a layer of glass on top?). I'll reuse the portlights. I pushed the bow rail forward on a plank for harpooning. No, not really, just for fun.

    The galley exists in the boat now, and it has a fitting through the hull, so I've opted to keep it. I'll put in 1/2" meranti bulkheads at the vee berth, and just aft of the galley. Opposite the sink was a porta potty, but I removed that part of the interior already to clear out some rotted wood. I'll install a new small bench here.

    The vee berth floats above the hull, so it really needs a bulkhead glued to it and tabbed it to the hull. The stringers tee into the vee berth bulkhead and are also the vertical supports for the galley and the bench seat.

    I also want a bench seat in the stern. I don't know if there needs to be a full motorwell. I have half a mind to tuck the motor up under a full-width bench seat and make it totally out of sight. (See MM21, bateau's Mini Maia which has one like this). I like the idea of this being super quiet, with the engine tucked up and under. I didn't draw it this way, but it's easy to imagine.

    There should be enough space between the stringers for a gas tank. The area under the vee berth is huge, and I could see putting a water tank there, as it's right next to the galley.

    The helm is on the cabin bulkhead. I'm not sure what kind of door makes sense here, maybe I'll reuse the existing drop boards. It's a step down into the cabin, necessitated by the higher sole. I'm going to do my best to get water to drain to the stern, but I drew in some side scuppers in case I get it all wrong.

    I like big wide side decks, though I'm not sure how wide I can go. I can attach them to the flange, which should provide a lot of support, but I drew in some vertical supports as well. I like inside frames anyway, makes for good fishing rod and speargun holders.

    A large swim step would be great. I started doodling a sugar scoop, but that seems complicated with the outboard. However.... if I can tuck the outboard under a bench seat, maybe I could do a full-width swim step. That would be really nice for my uses.

    I want to mount a light and vhf antenna up high on a collapsible mast. This could go anywhere I suppose, probably further forward than I've drawn it.

    I started cutting the cap off today. I really think the flanges are glued, there's nothing soft between the layers. I see no screws, just rivets that held on the plastic T-shaped lip that holds the rubber rail on. I'll do a test cut through the flange at the transom and see how this is really bonded.
     

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  3. retrosub
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Ithaca, NY

    retrosub Junior Member

    I took a section out of the flange at the transom, it appears that a combination of a thin layer of epoxy and rivets were used to hold the flanges together? Terrible. Whatever the case, the two flange pieces came apart in my hand. I hope it all comes off this easily, but I somehow doubt it. The bottom flange is considerably thicker than the cap, so this will be great for side decks.
     

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  4. SukiSolo
    Joined: Dec 2012
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    Location: Hampshire UK

    SukiSolo Senior Member

    I would not assume epoxy, more likely just polyester...
     
  5. retrosub
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Ithaca, NY

    retrosub Junior Member

    I can't find good marine ply anywhere near me, so I'm going to order some. Probably order from bateau.com unless there's someplace cheaper/better. What thickness plywood should I use for the following?
    Bow deck
    Side decks
    Cuddy sides
    Cuddy top (arched)
    Vee berth bulkhead
    Cabin bulkhead (helm)
    Rear bench bulkhead
    Seat tops
     
  6. retrosub
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Ithaca, NY

    retrosub Junior Member

    The entire cap has been removed, as well as the inner shell (with the exception of the vee berth and galley). I grabbed and pulled the shell, and it ripped right out. Not exactly confidence inspiring glass work here. Most of the hull feels pretty solid, though it's a bit soft under the cockpit. I'll run a layer of biax fabric down the inside of the whole hull, just to be on the safe side.

    I screwed 2x4s across the flanges so the boat would keep its shape. The 2x4 going lengthwise shows the approximate location of a stringer. There will be about 30" between them, I hope that's OK. I want to run the stringer along the galley, and it's about 15" from the centerline.

    Probably won't make much more progress until the wood and epoxy arrive.
     

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  7. retrosub
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Ithaca, NY

    retrosub Junior Member

    I went to the dump and threw out all the fiberglass I cut out. The receipt says it was 900 lbs! That doesn't include mast, boom, sail, and other sailing bits that I won't be using, so I think it's fair to say that 1100 pounds came off the boat. I'll keep track of what I put back into it, but I'm guessing it'll be maybe half that.
     
  8. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    You'd be surprised how fast weight adds up, as you're building things. At least you know you can built it stout and fall within the weight target.
     
  9. LP
    Joined: Jul 2005
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    Location: 26 36.9 N, 82 07.3 W

    LP Flying Boatman

    Retro,

    I just saw that you are in Ithaca. I'm in Buffalo and order my marine ply from Noah's in Toronto. They have a warehouse here in Buffalo that they typically ship to flat rate at $60. You can drive up and get it in Toronto, but you end up paying the Canadian VAT AND have to pay for gas. The $60 is a bargain.

    Are you keeping your ballast in place? I know a guy here in Buffalo that's building a boat and is looking for ballast lead. That would be me. :D PM me if you are getting rid of it. I suspect you will be keeping it in place.
     
  10. retrosub
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Ithaca, NY

    retrosub Junior Member

    I called Noah's, I'll do as you said and get it in Buffalo. Decent prices, but a 3 hr drive is a pain, so I'll get it all at once. I figure it's about $1800 in wood and epoxy, but I'm probably underestimating.

    Keeping the ballast in place, if I hear of some other lead source I'll contact you.

    I built a 2x4 frame over the center of the boat so I can drape tarps over the top and keep the rain (and snow) out. I have some minor interior cutting and grinding to do, then I'll scrub and prep the hull for glass reinforcement.
     

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  11. retrosub
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    retrosub Junior Member

    I don't know much about displacement motoring. Questions:

    1) Prop depth: How far below the bottom of the transom should the cavitation plate be? I hear about props coming out of the water and such. Can outboards also get swamped from being too low?

    2) Is there any reason I would want power trim and tilt? I'd like to keep costs down, and it seems like I'd want the prop horizontal anyway.

    3) If the boat comes in at 2300 lbs (same as it was in sailing configuration) and let's say 3000 with people and gear, will 6 hp be enough? The Tohatsu 6 hp is lightweight and reasonably priced. If I go with a remote steer Yamaha high thrust 9.9, I'm looking at twice the cost.

    4) PAR was advising remote steering, but this sailboat was originally steered with a tiller. The rudder weighed about the same as an outboard, and so I, thinking it would not be terrible for the boat balance if I get a lightweight outboard and steer from the stern.

    5) I'm seriously considering a sugar scoop swim step that would extend the hull lines aft. The outboard would either be in a slot in the scoop, or there would be a trap door so I could remove the motor. If I'm going to have a full-width swim step, why not make it function as part of the hull, right? Or is that just stupid?
     

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  12. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The difference between steering with a rudder or an outboard is night and day, advantage to the outboard. This is because of "vectored" steering thrust on the outboard, while the rudder requires flow across it to work, which is far less efficient. Outboard tiller steering is fine, though you'll find it more comfortable to be at a helm, maybe on a chair with a windscreen too.

    In your application a 6 HP outboard will do fine, you only need a few HP to make hull speed in calm water. If you go to 8 or 9.9, the engine will lug much of the time, which isn't good for piston tops. The only reason to go much bigger than 6 HP is if you plan on heavy loads, in heavy chop a lot. In this case, yes, you'll want the extra punch of a bigger outboard.

    A sugar scoop requires you cut the transom down to near nothing (unless you plan on climbing over it), so you'll lose a lot of athwart stiffness. It can be done, but a lot of additional reinforcement will be necessary to gain the lost stiffness. Maybe a platform is a better choice.

    As to tilt and trim, there are retro fit units now that will perform this function, though not exactly cheap. The outboard could be rigged on a slide, so you just haul it up, out of the water when parked. On a displacement outboard setup, the ventilation plate is usually a bit lower then on a full plane arrangement, which keeps is buried in a chop. How deep, well it depends on where the engine is located and the hulls general shape, at this location.
     
  13. retrosub
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Ithaca, NY

    retrosub Junior Member

    The previous owner of my boat felt so bad about the project he unwittingly gave me that he gifted me an Evinrude 9.9 long shaft. It's an older 2-stroke model, but has charging capability. So now I'm at the stage where I must decide about the transom height. What is it about the shape of the hull that determines how far below the transom the ventilation plate should be? Is it the upward sweep that is important? I guess too low is better than too high, so should I put the ventilation plate 5" below?
     
  14. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Too low and the engine will drown, too high and she'll pop out or ventilate. It's location is dependent on the buttock angles (aft up sweep), how much overhang the stern has, etc. If the LWL is at or near the transom, like on your boat, a transom mount is reasonable. This hull isn't going to hobby horse as much as other types, so a few inches (3) below the water is where the ventilation plate should live, which will keep is buried in a chop. If tiller steered, the stern will bury more, further halping keep the prop engaged.
     

  15. retrosub
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Ithaca, NY

    retrosub Junior Member

    Went to Noah's and got the wood, 17 sheets of Meranti, plus lots of epoxy and glass. They have good prices, and there's no tax because it comes out of Canada. All the plywood was discounted 10% because I ordered over 10 sheets. All said, I'd buy from them again.
     
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