MacGregor 26 not good? Water-ballast in general??

Discussion in 'Motorsailers' started by Tres Cool, Jul 1, 2007.

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  1. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    Fascinating. After reviewing the above web site, I was pointed to the Post Carbon Institute's web site. This Heinberg fellow has a book called Snake Oil which describes how the US (but not EU) is being fooled into thinking that fracking can continue longer than 5 years from now. Of course it can but not at 100 US per barrel. No large drilling concern is investing in that.

    So, we can be fairly certain that aluminum will find its way back into sail boat hulls as well as masts and wood topsides in the "post carbon" era, which I see has already been implemented in Croatia. The boats imported last year from there use aluminum stringers to provide hull strength rather than extra layers of glass.

    We can also be fairly certain that ballast will go back in the bilge where power boater designers and builders have known it belongs. You just do not see power boats with external weight tacked onto fin keels. The designers know that our experiments in sailboat design with that are basically a failure - this being made very clear as harbors become shallower and shallower because there is no commercial reason to dredge.

    So Water Ballast designs need some serious study. The Macgregor 26 models are the most extensively studied.

    According to Sailing Today, September 2000 page 83, Van de Stadt’s Dehler 25 sloop bested MacGregor Yachts by a year or so in the use of water ballast. The German Dehler 25s were produced from 1984 to 1991 and water ballast was reported in the US to be used for economical trailering reasons and cost savings.

    With the Van De Stadt patents ( like the Swing Rig Patent), I have come to doubt the reports involving cost. Dahler has always been more interested in innovation than cost savings. The notion that lower cost always translates into mediocre quality is a notion that I do not hold and is also not held in Lean. It is worth discussing the belief that any bilge ballast (water or otherwise) represents a failure by the architect/ builders.

    When a boat is launched and floats above her lines, correction is made by adding bilge ballast. Later, certainly before the boat is resold or perhaps during haul out, the bilge ballast might be tacked to the vessels keel where the design flaw isn't so visible and is even harmful.

    The notion that external keel ballast in any form is a flaw rather than a feature would not be a surprise to a sailor from 100 years ago. This trick of tacking lead on the external keel has probably been a joke among sailing work-boat owners for at least that long. Weight on a foil external to the hull creates a lever that the sea over time will use to crack the hull. I have chatted with two over 20 year old fiberglass sail boat owners who have experienced this cracking. They report that their vessels had not been grounded. Just sea action caused the cracks.

    Prior to about 1900, all sailing vessels used internal (also called bilge) ballast in the form of cargo, stone and, as in the case of Spray, concrete. Spray continues to be disparaged as a cheep boat because of her ballast. Yet this method of ballasting has been proven by time. Oriole is a 1918 George Owen (of MIT) racing yacht that was intended to be the largest yacht on the Great Lakes. She is larger than the current day maxis at 102 foot over all and 91 foot at the water line.

    The way to honor the sailors of the past is to preserve their vessels and in 2003 Oriole underwent a major overhaul. The most significant make over was the removal of CONCRETE ballast which was replaced with lead. Over the years Oriole gained a following among the less “yachty” and became known as the peoples boat. However, it must have been distressing to the well heeled to have a concrete ballasted vessel better them. Oriole came in second in the 1998 Victoria-Maui race and in 2000 finished more than 19 hours ahead on corrected time over some of the most modern race boats on the Pacific.

    Macgregor yachts likewise have been disparaged as cheep boats because of ballast. Movable water ballast, inertial ballast, in this case. But this fits the 100 mile definition and has been proven over several decades.
     
  2. SailDesign
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    SailDesign Old Phart! Stay upwind..

    Migholetto - are they still allowing you to post your nonsense here? Shame on them - and you.

    Please go take a course in Naval Architecture, then, and ONLY then, will you realise how uninformed and dangerous-to-others your in-faux-mation is.
     
  3. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    SailDesign I haven't spoken that name since 2003. But If your intent is to criticize Roger Macgregor owing to his degree's you will also need to criticize Olin Stephens. See below. I certainly would hire a naval architect but not all builders or owners do.

    Olin in February of 1988 confided in an oral history at Mystic Seaport that Ken Davidson was his mentor in applying science to sailboat design. Davidson was a physics or math professor in 1931 when young Olin first met him. Davidson had taken training in the Navy as well as graduating from Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The Stephens had built Gimcrack S & S (Gimcrack Sparkman and Sparkman) in hopes of getting a one-design class started. Davidson built a model for this vessel and tank tested it, the result being an education for young Olin and also the Gimcrack Coefficients which were applied to the driving and heeling forces of sails and rigs. Olin states about Davidson,

    “I would say the only bad advice he ever gave me was this: I said, ‘I don’t worry much about the naval architecture, I’m not going to school as a naval architect, but I wish I knew more about calculus.’ He said. ‘Oh, you can always get someone to do that for you.” (laughter) Since I’ve gotten involved with the computer, I wish I could do more of it myself.” Olin Stephens also states “I often kick myself, because with the knowledge that Ken had and a lot of which he passed along to me, I think we could have advanced a lot faster then we had.”

    Olin did not complete his degree at MIT. Instead his father, with financing from the sale of a coal-supply company, placed an order for the 52 foot Dorade with Olins company Sparkman & Stevens, and Olin set out to build her.
     
  4. SailDesign
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    SailDesign Old Phart! Stay upwind..

    Migho - it is not MacGregor I have an issue with, it is your interpretation of his ballast system. And everything to do with naval architecture as well. You would be advised to read a book on the subject some day, and study the science behind it. I recommend CA Marchaj's "Sailing Theory and Practice" to start.
     
  5. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    yeah - this strange statement for starters

    "The notion that external keel ballast in any form is a flaw rather than a feature would not be a surprise to a sailor from 100 years ago. This trick of tacking lead on the external keel has probably been a joke among sailing work-boat owners for at least that long."

    Its scarcely a joke. Surely the hundreds of thousands of successful finned or deep keel yachts and working boats that have made fast, wind powered substantial voyages in all weathers, in all parts of the world, make a nonsense of Mighetto's statement.


    I would bet that the only reason that older boats didn't have the long, weighted appendages of modern yachts is that they didn't have the aerodynamic theory nor the modern technology to make it successful, and they needed to have as much cargo and supply room as possible, for the non-engined voyages that they made.


    The pros - and cons of external keels are discussed here at
    http://www.gozzard.com/about.php?area=ab06

    Some points they make
    "..... if you consider a chunk of coral wearing away the bottom of a fiberglass laminate, would it not be a lot better if the bottom of the keel were metal.
    ......from our point of view an internal ballast system is far easier to design and build and hence is less expensive. External ballast has the advantage of being more durable and is a better lightning ground plane, creating a better righting arm, but is substantially more expensive. We will leave that decision to you."



    As far as weighted deep keel designs in general go - it has been in use for thousands of years.

    "....Most scholars believe that the Sambuk Dhow originated in China from 600 B.C. to 600 A.D......."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambuk
     

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  6. HalfaMark
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    HalfaMark New Member

    MacGregor/Tattoo 26

    Has anyone owned one of these or have hands on experience with one? I have a few questions and would like to receive any input, good or bad.

    About me, I have owned several dozen watercraft and consider myself to be reasonably educated about most with the exception of a submersible. I had big dreams of retiring in my late 50s and circumnavigating the globe. As the cards were turned over I wound up "retired" at 47 and have had to adjust to the "master plan". After five years and 12 surgeries I am able to get up most days and enjoy things.

    My new "plan" is to travel the states by wheel and water. To as easily as possible travel and see "our country". My idea is to use a MacGregor 26 as a tow behind camper, drop in the water, river, lake and even blue water marina hopper. I am fully aware of the design limitations and am most interested in a few "key" items.

    1) Is the vessel built reasonably well, fit finish and ease of maintenance ?

    2) Is the vessel easy to rig, launch and operate alone or with someone who has little experience but listens well ?

    3) Has anyone experienced any design problems outside of its intended "jack of all, master of none" parameters.

    4) Was it "fun"? In your opinion could you set out on a three month journey of using it as a camper, day sailor and powered runnabout.

    5) and last but not least, Would you feel reasonably safe island hopping, say Marathon Fla, to Bahamas to say Key West?

    Thanks in advance to anyone who could take some time to answer. I will still see the rest of the world one flight at a time over the next 30 or so years but just cant give up the idea of some sort of "adventure".

    Mark p
     
  7. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    I am talking about a 2006 model, and I have had no feedback on the Tattoo. We are talking about an 'adequate' level of finish and quality, which is good enough for most part. Stainless fittings like steering wheel, staunchions etc got a bit rusty at the welds, some deck fittings had to be re-installed due to leaks, and you will probably want to add some creature comforts. So, I would rate it as adequate, with lots of scope for personal tweaking and 'adjustment'. Get into the mac forums for hints for all the best gear.

    As good as any. You can streamline the process, and if you go through the macGregor site, you will get lots of tips. I would rather rig and launch a Macgregor off a trailer than some 16 ft beach cats that I have owned.

    Sailing is adequate, if you dont mind being passed by a lot of pure sailboats. Under power, it works great - easy to steer and manuevre.

    I have yet to find another boat with the room, the ease of towing, ease of launching and general all round usefulness. I was out almost every weekend, while older, cramped heavy designs sat in the marina for 8 months at a time. My son used to like to just go down to the boat and camp overnight near the water when the weather was too rough to actually go out.

    I have towed it in peak hour traffic in a big city, reversed it into tight places etc, and I am no experienced trailer jockey. Having my own beach side little house was a lot of fun, or a home in the caravan park while traveling.

    Do get a 4wd with decent power ( say an Isuzu 3.2 Turbo Diesel) for comfort of towing and slippery ramps.

    Lots of people have made much longer trips. Once again, the Mac site will give you lots of storys and blogs.
     
  8. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    MacGregor Yachts is a builder of ocean sail boats. I enjoy the following sources

    http://bwyachts.com/chinook/bahamas_2011/ Chinook
    http://pstobo.popstogo.com/bahama4.html Madgic Spell
    http://www.ne-ts.com/cr/cr-404bahamas.html
    http://www.ne-ts.com/cr/cr-401bimini.html
    http://a1sailboats.com/26xto.htm
    http://www.macgregorsailors.com/explore/exumas/index.php

    A "Macgregor 26M Bonnie Blue Sailing to the Dry Tortugas" video on You Tube is instructive. Note that the Executive Director of a national development program in the Republic of Kiribati got a fleet of Mac26x cruisers to the Marshall Islands where they were used for transporting medical and dental teams and supplies and were routinely sailed 500 miles from the Marshall Islands to the Republic of Kiribati. The director, shane@moonrakerdevelopment.com holds a merchant marine license, has a hundred-ton ticket, has sailed the world in many vessels including Columbia’s and Catamarans, owned a Mac26x and in 2002 indicated in an article that he would like to purchase a used one – probably regretting the sale of his first. He is a real fan of the cruiser and has sailed them in rough conditions and nothing broke. It is that kind of praise that makes me question those who claim the Macgregor Yachts are not a blue water cruisers. For a crew of two they may be the ideal blue water cruiser.

    But can a cruiser as capable be provided at a reasonable price today? I am thinking no. Well at least not for long. Assembly lines like the ones Roger Macgregor put together are of course possible, but owing to the cost of fiberglass materials and lack of skilled fiberglass workers, they are not sustainable for a run of 6,000.
     
  9. bob perry
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    bob perry Junior Member

    Hey Frank! Long time no see. I see you are still a zealot for your boat. Good for you. Some of things you say are quite whacky and incorrect at best. You seem to be a bit myopic. I think you need to get out on some different kinds of boats more. Like this one.
    [​IMG]
    The very last thing we would want on FRANCIS is water in the bilge.
     
  10. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    Based on the discussion involving Lean, I suspect custom designers like Bob will see an uptake in business. In the age of the MacGregor 26s, it was rare to find boats under 30 foot whose bottoms were done in had laid fiber glass. It was just two expensive - unless a production line could be set up like Roger did. It is even more so in the post carbon era.

    The point about not wanting water in the bilge of Francis is instructive. All boats whose masts are bilge stepped get rain water in bilges. Any boat with an internal liner will condense fresh water into the bilges. If the hull is wood this is very bad. If it is salt water or brackish it isn't more than an inconvenience, many owners have at least some water in the bilge. I take it that Francis is a fresh water boat not particularly suited for ocean use. She certainly is not a motor sailer but then perhaps neither are the Macgregor 26s. Hence the term power sailer. A Mac26 power sailer stores only enough fuel for 100 miles or so. You have to sail them to make passage even around Vancouver Island. Nice web site Bob. FYI, the Outbound 48, just got her Jones Act waiver. Of course we could not get the waiver for the Alaska inside passage.
     
  11. bob perry
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    bob perry Junior Member

    Frank
    FRANCIS is a salt water boat. The red cedar strip planing is sheathed inside and out witha layer of glass. The intended use for FRANCIS is daysailing on Puget Sound. WSe are now doing some racing so qwe can quick;ly get to know the boats potentials. So far we are very, very pleased. We do a bit over 10 knots under power balls to the wall with a 45 hp Yanmar and a sail drive.
     
  12. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    In 1979, the mini transat winner, American Express, carried water ballast, 280 lt. each side. see http://www.stevencallahan.net/images/proboat/wylie-feb2002.pdf I have often compared Mini Transats to Mac26x vessels owing to Wylie Design similarities. The article points out that Wylie's career was launched with American Express. Clearly he incorporated many innovations, not just those of Roger Macgregor's involving water ballast. Interestingly, his work in San Francisco is now oriented to Sustainability. Best I can tell, that started 5 or more years ago. The point is that no production line is sustainable - especially one based on oil, and that water ballast is proven good.
     
  13. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member


    I'm pretty sure that would be mostly for transferable ballast, not like a Macgregor's single keel tank.

    I've posted about wanting to install bladders or something into a Macgregor's ballast tank so you could shift weight on either tack for better sailing. It wouldn't be as safe but seems like it would be OK if watched closely. Maybe the bladders would be for air, or maybe they would be for water(run factory ballast tank 'dry') or maybe even fresh(drinking) water or fuel.
     
  14. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    The water ballast tank on a mac26x is baffled. So you can partially empty the tank on an 11 degree heel, close the air vent and valve(s) and tack to put the remaining water on the high side. No need for pumping side to side. Note - of course - the capsize potential. Solid flotation is a big deal for the design. Some of the later Mac26x boats have only one tank valve on the starboard. You might look into what it would take to put one on port. Alternately, running with an empty tank and 6 crew members, like a flying tiger, is attractive. No pump can match the speed of rail meat. Johnathan McKee believes solid ballast moved from side to side is the best on the Mini-Transat's.

    There is more on Lean Thinking to discuss. The one design manufactures compete against old identical vessels which are sold at 30 cents to the dollar according to the article provided in my last post. This shortens the time they can run a line and make money. We see from the J-boats that the solution to the problem is to change the design specs - making the old boats obsolete. Then a new line for boats with the new specs can be run profitably.

    Contrast that thinking with the Mac26 line. Here the vessels sell now for about what they did when new. That makes it possible for the Tatoo line to be profitable until the cost of materials is prohibitive. Many prefer New and the cost isn't that much different from old. The Tatoo is not being sold as an ocean sail boat. That makes it possible to reduce the number of layers of fiberglass to meet market cost expectations. Likely the Sharps will offer an ocean version at a custom charge. The upgrade would be easy - just add back in the glass. It is likely that the first 50 were built at that the ocean use standard, but it isn't the standard they are expected to produce or offering.
     

  15. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    No you cant.

    Closing the air vent doesnt keep the water on the lee side, it will just rush down and over to the new lee side, and as you say, potentially capsize the boat from the rush and/or lack of ballast.

    This advice is not only contrary to the strict operating instructions of the Mac and Tattoo, but it will void your insurance claim when you end upside down and drown the passengers inside like what happened in a badly skippered Mac 26.
     
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