"Hard Chines"

Brent will have to chime back in on this. I have not actually ever seen a Mylar sail on a small single hander with a free standing mast. Not sure that this is a good fit.

 

The sailmaker and I discussed various ways of making a sail for this boat. I truely know nothing about how or why sails are made much less, sail a dinghy. I grew up on keel boats. Mylar seemed to make sense because its suppose to hold its shape and NOT stretch. Waters sails has been working with me (good people) to resolve this and I'm sure its a result of the mast, boat or the operater (me). BTW... he makes all of the sails for the Raider. If you look here you'll see basically the same sail, only it looks really good.

This is a free standing mast and they carry a kite as well.

http://www.raiderone.org/melbournespring2004.htm

DaveK

 

That looks like a carbon mast on the Raider which would likely be much stiffer than the aluminum one you have. My thought was that your mast is too limber for a Mylar sail that doesn't stretch in any direction and so you get all those big wrinkles.

By the way, is that Joey Waters from SC?

 

Yep.... Waters Sails, Lexinton, SC. He's been a great help so far. I've only had boat wet twice since I've had the sail so, I expect to fix it. I also had spoke with a couple of former US1 champions from the mid '80s when I first got the boat. One of them had said that I needed to add some square tubing to the top section of the mast. I assumed it was only to keep from breaking the mast but, this may not be the case. Another buddy of mine who's a laser racer sailed it last weekend. His comment was that the mast was too bendy as well.

I guess this post got hijacked to sail shape.

Thanks
DaveK

 

Small world. I have known Joey for quite a while. Guess he is known as Joe now. I sailed Lightnings with/against his father and my son sailed Sunfish with Joey years ago. He comes to Oriental frequently for an invitational regatta and raced and won with a super prepared J 24 this year.

 

Match sail to mast bend

It is critical for the sailmaker to measure the mast bend characteristics so the luff curve is correct. The Raider uses a tapered carbon fiber mast that is actually pretty bendy. I actually developed the original asymmetrical spinnakers for the Raider (spinnaker pictures on the Raider site are still mostly my chutes), and in a related process, worked on a full-battened mainsail with larger roach than the original Watters mains. John Drawe, the designer and original builder, shipped me a mast, and later brought a boat from GA up here to PA for me to test for a week.

Laminate sails can work well on bendy masts, at least for a limited wind range. The Finn class has switched over to laminates after many years of using very soft cloth. The key is to put all of the camber into the sail with broadseaming, and then to exactly match the luff curve to the mast bend in the middle of the sail's range. More bend quickly flattens the sail when it's blowing.

Brent
Benson Sails

 

Us 1

Dave, I raced Windmills in the 60's and US1's in the early eighties. At that time Haarstick was "THE" sailmaker for the class. Don't even know if they're still around.
Takes some getting used to to sail the US1 especially manouvering in stronger winds when the whole back end will go underwater if you initiate a turn with too much heel. I sailed my 'Mill singlehanded with just the main and never had that problem ; I don't think reducing the freeboard was such a great idea. I always thought the US1 was a ripoff of Clark Mill's design but I never found out whether the US1 guys paid him a royalty or not.It was definitely a "splash" of the Windmill. I think a lot of US1's were built by Advance Sailboats if I remember correctly..
It takes practice and a lot of hiking but the US 1 is a fun boat! Don't change the chines unless you make them very sharp from midships aft-always wanted to do that...

 

Brent, your hurting my brain a bit with your explanantion but, I sent you an email with a question to help clarrify things.

Lorsail, there are quite a few folks in your neighbohood that raced the US1 back in the mid '80s. One of them is Ray Renfro and I spoke with him for an 1.5 hrs last night. He is a lot of fun to talk to and has all kinds of stories about the boat and the people that raced back then. Another is Geoff Moehl. I spoke to him once and he did suggest to stiffin the upper section of the mast. I'm pondering that idea for the sail issue. Also... I was convinced earlier in this thread to leave the chines as is.

I think I would like to build a Windmill though!!!
DaveK

 

Us 1

My very first race in the US1 was the "Lake Toho Reach" 22 miles down and 22 miles back up and it was one of my most exciting ever. I was up against Ray and Geoff and a bunch of other guys and the only thing I had going for me was my years of Windmill racing. Well I won the "down' leg but the up leg was tough. We were almost at the finish; Ray was right on my tail about 100' back and my hiking stick let go! I was able to jury rig it back and squeaked over in first-what a blast!
There was a guy- either Haarstick or Norm Freeman- that came to some of the races in Orlando.He was a sailor god! He'd bring his girlfriend to sail with him and would beat us all regularly in lite air-so frustrating...
I believe I heard about sharp chines from Paul Schreck who made sails and Windmills in Pensacola and taught me-and my brother-to race-great guy! Got my first 'Mill from him. From midships back particularly on a boat like the Windmill/US1 it was supposed to promote planing earlier. I later read a similar thing about the Star class where they made a point to sharpen the chines aft of midship and round them forward to the extent allowed under the rules. I don't think it was allowed under the US1 rules...
Tom, did you ever hear of sharpening the chine(or leaving it sharp) in the Windmill class?

 

I know nothing about US1, but I clearly remember that I have sharpened the shines on my optimist back from dagerboard and softenet it in front of dagerboard..Maybe I wanted that it would look better (becaus three months I have beem repairing and polishing my opti), but it sailed better, actualy much better, specialy then strong winds blew..All in all I was too young to feel the boat properly.

 

Doug,

Yes I have heard about that but in fiberglass boats, some radius is necessary to avoid air bubbles and a weakness at the sharp corner. Glass cloth will just not make a sharp bend very well. Those that try that often find there is nothing at the corner but gel coat and a small dink will open it up.

Since the boat must be competive in both light and stronger wind, what is effective in one is a detriment in another. I think it would be difficult to measure the effect of either. A radiused edge is also stronger and far easier to maintain. I've never done it but, if it makes you think your boat is faster, then it likely is. So much in sailing is mental.

 

Hey Lor..... Ray told me that story last night. We were talking about lite air, wind indicators, beer and whatever. He is such a funny guy!! Anyways... I believe he said it was Norm and he would put her on that little bitty bow and race 'em that way and beat them all!! That proved to Ray that weight doesn't matter in really light wind.

I'll also ponder the sharp chine. I'll be using alot of "kitty hair" to fixed some major divots. I could use it on the chines. It would be strong and not weaken the integrity of the existing glass work. I think Tom hates fiberglass. I know I hate working it. Especially in on hot August day

DaveK

 

chines

Dave-the names Doug ; you could use epoxy and something like aerosil or better yet microballoons.Plenty strong enough for that application and the microballoons would be light easy to sand and have no fibers to itch.Aerosil+epoxy is easier to work with and is best done with the ambient temperature below 70 since the aerosil "heats" up the epoxy. Microballoons are harder to work with when thickened but easy to sand and they don't "heat" up the epoxy.Don't even consider using polyester... But blending in to the gel coat wouldn't be easy and I don't think it would be worth the finishing work required-at least in your case. It would reduce the resale value too if the US1 ever gets popular again.
The same thing holds true on transoms(transom/bottom intersection)-even a finger round is too much if you're going for the nth degree of performance. It is most definitely psycological as well because if you know that you've done everything humanly possible to make your boat faster then it will be faster. But many experienced people also believe these mods to be hydrodynamically correct.
If glass 'Mills were made with epoxy resin then the chines, bow and transom could be as sharp as one could want but would cost a bit more.
Me ,I'll take one of Pauls'(or Tom's? ) wooden 'Mill's any time(just leave the chine sharp).

 

OK Doug... I've researched the microballoon thing and I am confused. It seems to be a filler that used with a epoxy resin??? I am really open to any suggestions on what to use for the hull imperfections and I hate working kitty hair. My (body man) experience steems from autos and mototrcycles. Haven't done any boats before but, I thought "kitty hair" would be strong and fill major areas and then I'd use a glazing epoxy over that (evercoat 400). I did redo a full size fiberglass dune buggy body for someone a few years ago. It was a '69 model and full of major holes. I wasn't wild about the art he had chosen for me to paint on it but, it turned out pretty straight.

Please let me know what products you would use for this????

This was the bug before and after.

 

fillers

Dave, I only have experience with aerosil and microballoons for deep and big repairs to one extent or another ; there are some West system fillers like Q-cells (I think) that I hear are good.
Aerosil mixed with epoxy can be used in a mold during layup to allow sharp corners; it won't crack and if done right won't heatup excessively. It is relatively heavy. Microballons are relatively lite and easy to sand but difficult to work when mixed thick enough not to run.They shouldn't be used in a laminate since they have a propensity to gass off.(see below for other finishing systems)
I've never used either to fix MAJOR(flat) areas-I'd have to know exactly what you were talking about before recommending either-area depth etc.. You might call the tech's at Gougeons West system and ask them as well. You don't want to use polyester because it shrinks and can distort a thin laminate.
Polyester gelcoat matched to your gelcoat is fine for small nicks but a job like filling the chine to make it sharp would require microballoons or aerosil+ epoxy.When I lay up an epoxy part with sharp corners I spray the mold(after mold release) with a primer/that uses a hardener, give it 30 minutes then use aerosil + epoxy in the corners and immediately lay up over that-can't be done like that with polyester. In a mold you can also spray in Imron give it an hour and layup right on the Imron using epoxy-MUCH lighter than gel coat.And the older versions of krylon worked well too as a substitute for gel coat in small models..
For finishing a polyester or epoxy substrate I have used Rober primer/hardener-best primer I've ever found and made in Italy.This primer can be used as a gelcoat substitute in an epoxy lamination-and is much lighter mainly because it can be effectively applied thinner than gel coat... You might consider Super Fil which is a ultra light weight filler for up to .125" and is epoxy based so it does not shrink-it's very easy to sand and made by Poly Fiber and sold in Aircraft Spruce and Specialty's catalog(an excellent source for small quantities of everything from carbon to epoxy to filler material..).1-877-477-7823 You'd do yourself a favor if you ordered the catalog.
An excellent filler for use on polyester substrates is ICING #26006 for filling pinholes and such-sort of a very thin Bondo- it will also work(bond) on the previously mentioned Rober primer(probably available at high end auto paint suppliers).
If you give me the particulars on a specific job I'll try to help....