How long until we see 3D printed components in boat building?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Timothy, Dec 16, 2013.

  1. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    That doesn't look particularly capable but I am sure someone somewhere is doing it right.

    More to the point I am seeing a shift of large companies going from saying they are looking at what it might do for them to open claims that they will use 3d printing to produce a percentage of their parts by specific dates. The next step is management needing to report progress to justify their jobs.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303933404577505080296858896
     
  2. capt vimes
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    capt vimes Senior Member

  3. Baltic Bandit

    Baltic Bandit Previous Member

    And again, the problem is the issue of reproducibility and reliability. the part coming out of the 3D printer has the cost advantage that its a one time part it also has the disadvantage that because its not part of a repetitive process, there is no way to validate by random sample testing as to what the structural limits of that particular component are.
     
  4. latestarter
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    latestarter Senior Member

  5. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Weird, you keep saying this, but the FAA has been granting airworthiness certifications to jet engine parts made by additive manufacturing. In large part because the manufacturers have been able to prove the exact type of repeat ability and reliability in parts you are saying is impossible.
     
  6. Yellowjacket
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    Yellowjacket Senior Member

    You are totally missing the point, and you have no knowledge or understanding of how a part is approved by the FAA for use in a certified engine.

    A jet engine manufacturer can readily produce parts by any method that he chooses, but there has to be quality control procedures and processes in place to insure that the quality of the parts produced are consistent with the parts that he used in the certification test. If a manufacturer produces a part by a new or different method a 150 hour re-certification test must be conducted with those part to insure that they are airworthy.

    No manufacturer is going to produce a part and simply put it in an engine and sell it. Moreover, as mentioned earlier parts made by this method undergo hot isostatic pressing (Hipping) to insure that there are no voids in the part, and this is an expensive and not insignificant process that can't be avoided if you intend to use parts made by this process in an gas turbine. Lastly many critical gas turbine parts undergo x-ray inspection to insure that the parts are safe for flight use.

    In short you are confusing aerospace quality standards that are exacting and insure that the quality of parts produced are consistent and safe to fly with something that someone with a machine can make in his basement. Two totally different things. Just because part of the process that the engine manufacturer uses is the same as you want to use in your basement, that does not mean that the parts you make in your basement will have the same quality if you don't use the same process entirely, and also install process control and inspection processes that insure consistent quality.
     
  7. Baltic Bandit

    Baltic Bandit Previous Member

    And that's the key... the reason 3D printing is being used for those parts is because of the complex shapes involved and fine edges that CNC has difficulty with. NOT because it is a "cheaper" or "faster" process. But rather because in that particular edge case, its the right tool for that job.

    so repeatability and reliability aren't quite as critical there, nor is speed, given the amount of post mill/prod testing that will need to get done.

    So show me even a moderate size cargo ship that carries X-ray inspection tooling much less HIPping capabilities
     
  8. capt vimes
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    capt vimes Senior Member

    that is exactly what it is all about...
    reproducibility and reliability - and now show me another fabrication process which is able to reproduce parts with the same reliability easy and with almost no effort in terms of manual work or overlooking the damn process.
    what comes out of that bloated printer is and will always be the exact same thing!

    your argument _against printing is backfiring at you... ;)
     
  9. Baltic Bandit

    Baltic Bandit Previous Member

    Wrong on the "exact same thing" - precisely because the sintering process can create accidental voids in ways that a drawn billet does not

    And same reliability? Most current mfg processes are MORE reliable (as measured by Mean Time Between Error)

    no Effort? how much effort is there to hit a button on a CNC mill?


    Look the diff between a "3D printer" and a CNC mill is that the former is additive and the latter subtractive. But if you remember your grade school maths - addition and subtraction are transitive and commutative. IOW flip sides of the same coin. Each has a some unique characteristics BUT you don't see folks running around saying "CNC Mills are going to eliminate the need for parts stores on boats"
     
  10. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Here is a real life example.
    I need a fancy bottle cap at work. I just got the quote.
    SLS from nylon is ~$20 each for 40.
    Injection molding from Polypropylene is between $0.20 - $0.60 depending upon complexity and quantity (100K was used as the estimate)

    Sorry I don't have an actual example for boat hardware.
     
  11. Baltic Bandit

    Baltic Bandit Previous Member

    Well you can consider this one:
    3D metal sintering runs roughly $8/cc for Stainless. a 1/4" x 2" SS bolt then is roughly 3.5cc. so that's $20-$30 per bolt.
    Meanwhile West Marine sells them for $25 also.. but for a box of 100
    http://www.steelmarinefasteners.com/1-4-20-x-1-2-hex-head-cap-screw-type-316-ss-100-per-box.html

    Now the argument made was that shipping a set in via next day drop costs you as much as $2k. sure it does. But if you carry a box in stores, the oppty cost is nothing.
     
  12. capt vimes
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    capt vimes Senior Member

    Billets might also have voids and imperfections, and they have lots of it... That's the reason why you forge metal...

    I have no clue what mfg stands for...
    But try to mill a structure like i posted above... ;)

    Yeah - because they are heavy, big and lumpy, are power hungry like hell and produce so much "dirt" in form of scraped of material... Not very convenient for a sailing boat...
    3d printers do take also some space, need quite a bit of energy but they are at least very clean... ;)
     
  13. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Capt Vimes,

    Now you stepped in it. quit reading popular science.

    "Billets might also have voids and imperfections, and they have lots of it... That's the reason why you forge metal..."
    WRONG. You forge metal to get a part with smaller input stock. If you do it really well you get better material properties due to less residual stress, but not always.
    Plate material used to aircraft standards has essentially no issues with voids.

    MFG means manufacturing.

    No one where I work wants a structure like you posted. Just because you can do something does not mean you should.

    Why did I let myself get sucked back into this?



    I don't know about 3D printers being clean, the ones I was dealing with throw away 80% of the material used (that is not as bad as a mill), and it has to be treated as hazardous waste. Milled material can usually be recycled at some fraction of the original total stream processing cost. Aluminum is just the best example I personally know.
     
  14. Baltic Bandit

    Baltic Bandit Previous Member

    Billets MIGHT have voids. You can prescan them to validate that they do not. And without HIPing, Billets have strain orientations designed in that 3D printing does not.

    As I said earlier, there are SOME structures where 3D printing is the only way to accomplish it. So tell me. where is that structure you posted going to be used on a boat?

    And yes CNC mills are big and lumpy, so are DMLS machines And DMLS machines produce way more waste which as upchurch points out, often has to be treated as hazardous waste
     

  15. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

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