Buccaneer 24 Builders Forum

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by oldsailor7, Jul 22, 2009.

  1. outside the box

    outside the box Previous Member

    Hope this helps

    Hi Carl
    We left it a few days for Bruce to get back to you but know he is busy perhaps so have scanned our workshop copy's of our plans, if these don't help just get back to us and we will get what you need to you via email if these are not what is needed and or clear enough.
    Cheers from
    NZ
     

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  2. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
    Posts: 1,275
    Likes: 59, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 214
    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    I am slack

    :rolleyes: Yes, I have been "busy" ;). We had a snow day that disrupted the whole city, and I had to catch up. Definitely not prepared for it.
    I have the same plan details, but I do want to add- DON'T build like the plans- it is a source of constant leaks, and will eventually rot your float. Because of small amounts of movement, water ALWAYS gets down the bolts, and ends up saturating the saddles and the frames underneath them. A very simple, easy to build but poor design detail IMO. My 33 is done the same way, with the same issues.
    I think the dimensions are fine at the front, but check the float for level before you commit to the rear saddle height. I was planning on getting you the spacing of mine, but I haven't had time to go to my boat at the lake. (Its 45 miles away). Its rear saddles are probably about an inch taller.
    B
     

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  3. Headharbor
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 67
    Likes: 4, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 26
    Location: Boothbay, Maine

    Headharbor Junior Member

    B24 deck camber con't

    Outside the box,
    Thanks for sending the images. The pixel quality did not make it through the interweb from New Zealand, but i can make out enough of the details. ;) if you have higher resolution pictures, and could pm to me, that would be great. One of these days I'll spring for a copy of the plans.

    The aft beam attaches just forward of frame #4 and the forward beam just forward of frame #2. camber on frame #2 is ~ 1 5/8". camber on frame #4 is ~ 1/2". I can now confirm this on my boat.

    BruceB,
    My boat is fiberglass with foam core, i have seen issues with water working down the bolts, but no rot as there isn't a piece of wood in any of the hulls. I had been planning to weld aluminum angle bar, much like the pictures of your B33 you sent me. I could then 'adjust' saddle height by adding/removing spacers as needed. This seems like a simple process with flexibility for the future. I may just have to live with a little water. I some point, I don't see a way around holes in the deck. What were you thinking of to limit water?

    Thanks again, this forum is great!
     
  4. outside the box

    outside the box Previous Member

    Hi Carl
    I will have my daughter (pro photographer) sort a high quality full set out for you so it won't go sad and flat via the www transfer, if you want a buildable set we can run them through the scanner in pdf or similar format for you.

     
  5. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
    Posts: 1,275
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    saddle choices

    Carl, I didn't realize your decks were glass also, my 33 hulls are glass but the decks, bulkheads and shear clamps are wood- with the usual rot problems in the floats. I guess a little water won't hurt the glass floats, but try to make sure that it can't penetrate the foam core deck and freeze crack it.
    My friend's B-26 has mounting brackets welded on its float beams so they just bolt flat against the deck, and don't appear to leak. The "cup" that the stock saddles form seems to be the real problem with water getting down the center bolt, and almost impossible to caulk when assembling the boat. Eliminating the saddles also helps keep standing water away from the alloy beam. The saddle contact areas on my 24 beams were pitted, and had large holes on my 33. The stainless to alloy contact areas that everyone seems to worry about had no damage at all after 40 years on either boat. You can see the pitted saddle areas on the 26 beam in the photo. (the welded brackets were added later)
    I know your boat is not the same as the plans for a wooden one, but I think you would really benefit from a set of the full size plans anyway. There are a lot of measurements and construction details that don't show well in pictures, and they can save you quite a lot of time. The plans lose too much detail when scanned smaller. The "critical" dimension I think you need is 4" from the deck to the center of the beam, assuming your beams are the same 4 3/4" diameter as the plans show. (mine are 4 1/2" ) I wish I could find a set plans for my 33 :cool:
    B
     

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  6. Headharbor
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 67
    Likes: 4, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 26
    Location: Boothbay, Maine

    Headharbor Junior Member

    Bruce,
    Thanks as always for the discussion. I have found some pitting on the beams after I removed the fiberglass it was encased in for the last 25+ years. No evidence of through pitting.

    Like you, I have seen no evidence of pitting at the stainless points of contacts (through bolt and SS straps). I was going to replace the stainless, and weld on an aluminum tang of equal strength (after consulting a local marine engineer). What do you think?

    If I was to keep the stainless and make the brackets similar to your B33, I believe there is little need to run the stainless bolts through the float deck. As long as the brackets are strong enough. This might eliminate the water getting into the floats. What do you think?

    Best,
    Carl

    PS. Thanks for sending the snow north, it arrived this morning at 3 am. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
  7. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    Enjoy the snow!

    You can guess how much we did :rolleyes:
    I am not completely comfortable with the weld on brackets- I can see flex/point loading issues, but they seem to have worked on the B-26 in the pictures. (That is not a typo- it is a 26 derived from a B-24). The 26 is in really nice condition, almost as if it didn't get used much after the conversion. It may never have been "tested" very much. We have no way of knowing as the builder/previous owner has passed. It was built by a pro boat builder for himself, and stayed in his family for quite a while.
    My 24's floats have some up and down movement (actually quite a bit :(), that I have tried to minimize with shims and rig/waterstay tension, with modest success. Its not as bad as a old loose Hobie 16, but has to be taken account of in tuning the boat. The stock beam saddle attachments allow some flex with out breaking. I don't know which is cause and which is effect. I didn't sail the 26 before it was dismounted, but it seems very stiff. Its beams are one piece with no joint at the hull. They slide in a socket in the cabin and then the floats are raised into position and bolted on. The trailer is customized with arms to make it fairly easy. My 33 was quite stiff also, even with the damaged beams, I think because its inner beam joints were very tight. There was still some evidence of movement in the saddles. I am not sure of the right answer.
    B
     
  8. Headharbor
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 67
    Likes: 4, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 26
    Location: Boothbay, Maine

    Headharbor Junior Member

    Bruce, my misunderstanding, I thought the welded brackets were from your 33. Knowing that they are from the 26 makes this more interesting. Do they have a receiving pad or are the simply bolted through the deck?

    To further confirm, I believe the water stays on the 26 are not through bolted to the ama deck. They appear to have SS tang running through the beam?

    many ways to skin a tri.
    Best,
    Carl
     
  9. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    26 details

    Carl, the 26 water stays are connected to a stainless tab through the beam, and very nicely done. I don't know what the beams bolt to in the float, but I will look. The 26 and my 33 are stored next to each other.
    B
     
  10. Headharbor
    Joined: Mar 2010
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    Location: Boothbay, Maine

    Headharbor Junior Member

    Bruce,
    Thanks for the clarification. Time to go talk to the welder.
    Carl
     
  11. SkipperGS
    Joined: Jan 2014
    Posts: 12
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    Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

    SkipperGS Junior Member

    Replacing 'trampolines' and motors.

    All this talk about snow and freezing weather doesn't make sense over here! Since before Christmas, we've had 35-40o temperatures every day in Rio. During the last three days it's hit 43o with a 'thermal effect' of 53o in some sheltered areas. A cold front might possibly move through in about ten days.

    To replace the UV-rotting lateral panels and stitching I managed to find some heavy 30mm polyester netting (not cheap!) But this blazing heat has been slowing things down. To rig any temporary shelter on the mooring is difficult since the heated land whips up strong winds from the sea in the afternoon, funneled even more by two flanking hills. I would get fried without shelter!

    I had inherited a fine 4HP 2T Yamaha when I bought this B24. But it struggles in a head wind for lack of power, and gulps air in a choppy sea because it is not longshaft. So it needs to be changed. A 6HP longshaft should be enough but one of 8HP would be better. Longshafts are rare out here because the market is small. Only Mercury offer an 8HP (actually 9.8) 2T longshaft with 60 days delivery and a salty price (about twice the value of the Yamaha). But it's only 3 kilos more in weight than the Yamaha (with 23k).

    BUT I've been offered a beautiful completely renovated year 2000 Honda BF15 4T EXTRA-longshaft for less than the resale value of the Yamaha. The only problem is its added weight (48k) and extra horizontal torque (being deeper). I would need to strengthen and extend forward the basic engine hull mounting beneath the starboard cockpit seat. I would have to replace the present 4-leg aluminium mount with a wider, stronger and larger SS one. It would need 2 locked positions - lowered for heavy weather, and raised for quiet weather/shallow waters and to tilt it free of the surface. It would have to be a permanent instalation with maximum theft protection! It has electric start and generation. This will require another battery etc etc! But it's legendary quietness, reliability and fuel economy would be a great asset, more so when I start operating the boat with occasional commercial passengers. If I have a commitment to take tourists out for the day but there is no wind (as happens often in Rio) then the engine becomes more important than sailing power. Timetables need to be met!

    BUT what about the weight, torque and stresses imposed? Your thoughts will help me decide whether to buy this Rolls Royce of motors or be a little more considerate to the lightweight B24 and save up for the Mercury 8HP!
    You can see that the engine looks almost new. Just the replacement imported water pump cost USD 600,00.
     

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  12. Headharbor
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 67
    Likes: 4, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 26
    Location: Boothbay, Maine

    Headharbor Junior Member

    Skipper, the only concern I would have is the weight. My boat is very sensitive to weight in the stern. It sounds like you need the extra thrust given your conditions and needs. There might be less heavy mounting options using the beams. I think the Green Death Trap's engine was mounted on beams. look back in the b24 thread for pics.

    I would love to see 40F let alone 40C
     
  13. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    Beams and engines

    Beams first- The float mounting bolts on the 26 are about 5" long and screw into a bolt plate, about like the studs on the stock set up. The float only has screw in ports, so I can't actually see it, but everything seems pretty dry- for a float.
    Big engines- IMO, I think the Honda 15 is too heavy and powerful. I have a 2008 honda 15 long shaft that came with my B-33, and it is just ok on the 33. It would be a monster on the 24. It has been on a side mount bracket attached to the port crossbeam on my 33, and has cracked a very robust custom mount. It has a LOT of torque. The 24 is already weight challenged at the stern, and certainly doesn't need an extra 50 lbs back there. An 5hp will get you to 7 knots, and an 8hp will push you through any wind/wave conditions that you can motor into. A side mount will keep the engine in the water more and not overload the back of the boat as much.
    A word of caution on motor brackets. They are "usually" rated with a short shaft, and an extra long shaft (25") will reduce the practical rating by at least half. Even then, they will need regular inspection and repair.
    My Honda is a good engine, but it does not seem any quieter than the two cylinder engines of other brands. Here in the US, hondas have had real problems with alcohol in the gas we have, and all parts are very expensive. I don't think the salt water resistance is a good as the other brands either. They are probably ok on a boat that is kept out of the water and can be washed and flushed every time, but not so good if you keep them docked.
    If you do get an electric start engine- very nice on the larger ones, there is a company selling a lithium-ion 12v battery pac that has plenty of power, and is small enough to fit under the engine cover. Makes a really nice package and saves the weight and clutter of an external battery.
    B
     
  14. SkipperGS
    Joined: Jan 2014
    Posts: 12
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

    SkipperGS Junior Member

    Honda 15 HP

    Thanks for your replies which confirm my own doubts about its weight and torque. This strengthens my resistance to the Honda temptation! I could have bought it for USD 1,200.00. Pity!
    I'll keep a good eye out for a rare used light 2T longshaft from 6 to 8 hp while saving up for a new Mercury!
    I'll send in details of the new netting side-decks once fitted.
    Take care.
     

  15. Headharbor
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 67
    Likes: 4, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 26
    Location: Boothbay, Maine

    Headharbor Junior Member

    Bruce, is the 'bolt plate' tapped and threaded? Is this plate then bolted to the top of the deck or beneath. Does this setup again take you to the same problem with dissimilar metals (Al brackets and plate, SS bolts)?

    As I indicated earlier, like you, I did not have any corrosion with the beam to water stay connections. However, my not to plan, Al water stays did have significant corrosion after one season using SS bolts.

    Best,
    Carl
     
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