How long until we see 3D printed components in boat building?

Baltic,

1) You can download the SolidWorks file for every part that McMaster Carr sells and load it onto a hard drive. No need for satellite internet, just do it while in port. I have said this a few times, but it isn't getting through. You could carry a SolidWorks file for every part on the boat on board on a $100 hard drive, including the cad drawing of the boat itself for that matter.

2) right now there are very few parts you can't get a SolidWorks file for if you know where to look. Most major manufacturers will provide them to you for free, a few require NDA's.

3) How tested does it need to be? Unless you are talking about individual part testing every single part manufacturing is about assumptions. There is an assumption that a forged shackle is going to be X strength and after having tested thousands there is good evidence to assume that they are all within the same MBL. But there could always be a flaw in a specific one. Better and better 3d printing methods are coming on line with the same repeat ability of forging. No you can't test every part while underway, but I don't test every shackle on my boat anyway.

4) this is your best argument, and it is a real concern. But the price on machines has been dropping. How low they will go I don't know, and how long it will take is an open question.

In the last few weeks a $1500 metal additive manufacturing printer hit the shelves. Which to my knowledge is the cheapest one on the market. Of too low quality for what I am envisioning, but it's a start. A few major patents ran out seven days ago, so there is a lot of reason to believe that prices will start to fall quickly this year.

 

Stumble,

You are obviously not an engineer and don't have an understanding of material processing, heat treatment or other factors that go into the making of metallic parts.

For instance, you are assuming that the material properties and strength of a part made by this method match those for some other part that you can buy off the shelf, and, since you have no way of knowing how the part was originally made, often what it was made from, and how it was processed, that is simply not true.

Typically parts made from plate or forgings are heat treated to arrive at the finished part properties. Or they may undergo forging processes for form the grain in the part to insure it is strong in the proper places and this process does not do that. The parts you make will have neither of these attributes. You have mentioned several times making threaded fasteners, and most high strength threaded parts have rolled threads to insure the grain flow under the threads is properly made to maximize the strength of the part.

What you will end up with is exactly the same thing that the Chinese often sell, inferior parts that look like and might even fit the same as the real thing. This is tremendously dangerous because you cannot readily tell the difference between what may be basically junk, and properly made parts that are safe and sound.

Without HIP'ing the parts don't have properties that are approaching forged material properties, and you have no way of insuring that the parts don't have voids or areas where the material isn't consolidated without this process.

When I make a bolt in a screw machine, the rod stock is processed by the mill and I can assume that it is sufficiently strong because they have processes in place to assure that there are no flaws in the material. You have none of this in your back door operation and as a result you have no quality control what so ever.

While you are talking about making "hardware" that is simple from files pulled down from McMaster Carr, you have no knowledge as to how the original part was made, and how strong it really is. You have no tolerance information as to how the parts fit and trying to grind down a bolt to get it through a hole is no small task. Many models of hardware on that site, aren't models of how the part works (things like hinges or pivoting parts), but are there so that a designer can plug the model into his assembly and show how it all fits together. Fine for simple brackets, but for anything else the model is quiet often simplified to reduce the CAD file to something that looks good in the assembly model.

For something like a cleat or for hanging a picture in your house that's fine, but if you are out in the ocean and one of your homemade hose clamps fails and you have water flooding the engine room, that's an entirely different thing.

All this "we're going to download the McMaster Carr catalog and go off making lots of small pieces" really shows that you don't understand how real hardware is made, and what kind of engineering goes into the design, specification, tolerances and manufacturing processes that are developed for even pretty basic and simple pieces.

In fact CAD programs don't actually specify the geometry and shape of the threads, they simply allow the thread specification to be created on the drawing by clicking on the thread area that you specified in the model. This is really just a way of speeding up the drafting process, it isn't creating a model of the threads. To get real threads that you can "print" you're going to have to go in and, guess what, create a model the actual threads. And, surprise, surprise, that's going to take a lot more education and CAD savvy to do that than a typical 8 year old has. You will need to know the pitch, length of thread, major and minor diameters, the thread profile and you will have to determine how you want the threads to end without creating a high stress concentration at the end of the thread. Screw machines do this automatically, but CAD systems currently don't because once you put the thread callout on the drawing the machine shop making the bolt does all of that.

And yes, you could make some brackets or covers or some unstressed hardware, and use it to hang a picture on your wall and it will be just fine, but as you go on to parts that need to be strong and properly made to maintain the seaworthiness of your boat, that is an entirely different matter.

Without someone who has an engineering degree and a bunch of experience, your approach is a failure looking for a place to happen, and if it happens at sea, there may be no one left to figure out why you disappeared.

The idea of just anyone making any part that they want scares the hell out of me because I could be occupying the road or waterways with some idiot who has made a defective part and never had a clue as to why it was made the way it was or the way it was processed originally.

EDIT... And as a lawyer that should scare the crap out of you too, since if you make that part and it fails you're going to be the one who gets sued.... I can see the cross examination going on.. Do you have an engineering degree?? Did you heat treat the part??? Did you do an x ray inspection for flaws?? Did you perform fatigue testing on a sample of the material??..

 

Opex? powder, electricity and what?

Capex -interest rates are under 3%

What does the machine cost? What does a titanium masthead cost? How many would have to be sold to payoff the machine?

Ancillary bits? What ancillary bits?

Maybe we have the makings of a deal here. Stumble sounds interested in selling his stainless inventory -BB thinks there is no replacement...

 

Interest rates are not Oppy cost and you are still shelling out $10k in advance rather than $1-2k MAYBE at some future date.

So what if you can get the parts CAD files. Your sintered part is not tested so no one will let you put it into a Service/safety critical path. And if you can't use it for service/safety, then the vessel's "stranding" is not addressed

Furthermore if you are drop shipping service/safety parts anyway - then you either toss in the little bits onto the same baggage box, or you wait till the boat makes the next port where you are going to have an inspection done anyway.


So there is no benefit gained

Thanks YellowJacket for taking the time to address the download issue and the modeling issue.

 

Boats next?

At the University of Southern California, a team of students led by Professor of Industrial & Systems Engineering Behrokh Khoshnevis has built a computer-controlled injection system that pours concrete according to a pre-loaded set of blueprints.

"Comprised of robotic arms and extrusion nozzles, a computer-controlled gantry system moves the nozzle back and forth... by which large-scale parts can be fabricated quickly in a layer-by-layer fashion," the project's webpage explains. "The chief advantages of the Contour Crafting process over existing technologies are the superior surface finish that is realized and the greatly enhanced speed of fabrication."

The entrepreneurs among us can quickly see the business potential here. "Contour Crafting technology has great potential for automating the construction of whole structures as well as sub-components," the team promotes.

"Using this process, a single house or a colony of houses, each with possibly a different design, may be automatically constructed in a single run, embedding in each house all the conduits for electrical, plumbing and air-conditioning."

I bet urban developers really like that one part... "each with possibly a different design." Now we're getting somewhere. Contour Crafting can give us the speed and efficiency of a cookie squeezer without the repetitiveness of a cookie cutter. Nice.

Its applications also include humanitarian projects, such as natural disaster relief. "It can take several months or years before disaster victims are placed in permanent housing," the USC team's Urban Policy Brief reassures.

"Imagine comfortable and livable emergency shelters (not tents) constructed rapidly for long-term use... The potential applications of this technology are far reaching including but not limited to applications in emergency, low-income, and commercial housing."

But the team isn't stopping there. When they say "far reaching," they mean f-a-r reaching — like into space.

"Contour Crafting will most probably be one of the very few feasible approaches for building structures on other planets, such as the Moon and Mars, which are being targeted for human colonization before the end of the century."

They may have found water on Mars, but they'll be hard-pressed to ever find any trees. And in the absence of concrete, you can always use dirt. After all, mud bricks — "adobe" in Latin America — have been in use for centuries.

Implications for Existing Industries

Possibly the first impact of this new technology will be on construction materials and their production. Nature lovers will certainly like the idea of less lumber being used. Although some lumber will still be required for doors, window frames, cabinets, and flooring, at least the use of lumber in the home's framework would be spared.

Of course, that won't sit well with lumber companies, which will have to lay off untold thousands of workers over time.

Other casualties in the construction materials space could be suffered by drywall producers. Yet Warren Buffett is likely none too worried about his 30% stake in USG Corporation (NYSE: USG), one the largest manufacturers and distributors of building materials worldwide, specializing in "gypsum and related products, including gypsum wallboards, joint compounds, cement boards, gypsum fiber panels" and "gypsum fiber." It'll probably be another decade or two before the Contour Crafting system impacts USG's bottom line.

But the potential loss of construction jobs is something of a different story. As with any new technology, the jobs created by the new industry often meet or even beat the number of jobs lost in the old industry it replaces. Employment opportunities are merely shifted from the old industry to the new, though new skills will have to be acquired.

But the USC team behind the Contour Crafting system sees changes for the better throughout the construction industry as a result of its technology.

"Manual labor will be significantly reduced. Muscle power will be replaced by brain power. Women and elderly workers for the first time will find new job opportunities in construction," the team projects in its report.

The heavy-lifting jobs would be reduced, but not the trades.

And with the reduction of heavy labor jobs comes an increase in safety. "Safety elements inherent in the process will signiï¬cantly reduce the rate of on-the-job injuries that are so prevalent in the construction industry today, thereby lowering the costs of litigation, insurance, and medical treatment, to say nothing of saving lives," the report promises.

When put together, the reduction of construction time from nine months to one month combined with interior finishes, the use of cheaper and fewer building materials, and the lower costs of labor promises to make homes cheaper to build and more affordable to own.

Or does it?

 

http://green.wikia.com/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_concrete
The Cement industry already is one of the top two contributors to Greenhouse gasses at current volumes.

As for drywall - who wants to live in a concrete space - they are cold. most French country houses have drywall/lathe hung on the inside of their stone walls precisely because stone gets so cold. Great in the summer but awful in the winter

 

If complex concrete shapes can come out of a nozzle , there is no reason a foam core and then structural covering could not create a vessel.

The Cement industry already is one of the top two contributors to Greenhouse gasses at current volumes.

Excellent , the production of cement might stave off the next ICE AGE .

.08 inches of higher tide in Miami in 2100 or 2 miles of ice on NYC ? big choice!

 

Actually it is not feasible to design and spend your hard earned money on 3d printed components. 3d Printing is specific in manufacturing only hard to make parts, which have, either shapes that require multiple stages of construction or very detailed by design.

The only way I see 3d printing is if someone decides on making an all round carbon fiber parts for the boat in which case it would be one hell of a ride!

 

Heated,

Or to manufacture parts where normal supply chains are poorly developed, expensive, or not timely. As an example, to get a stainless steel turnbuckle to Jamaica takes between six and eight weeks, regardless of cost. Because it takes that long to clear it thru customs. Which means the only way to get a $50 part if you need it today is to buy a round trip ticket to Miami, buy it from the local West Marine, and get back on the plane (I know because I have done exactly this a few times).

Total cost for a 5/16 pin turnbuckle - $640, $600 for the ticket, $40 for the turnbuckles.

 

Interesting I suppose you could qualify as a candidate for whom 3d printing might be viable. On the other hand I would have gone to my trusted travel agent and told him that I have 30 kg luggage space which I am not using so is there any cargo that I could book under my ticket?

He would then proceed to pay me a fine sum to lower the cost of my ticket and note he would clear customs then book under the ticket. Finally I'd even haul some souvenirs to sell to my relatives, friends etc..

Not to mention I'd plan ahead and get all the stuff I needed in one go.. Could always use the local 3d printing shop to print my designs.. What if there wasn't one? Then I'd have to buy a damn 3d printer with accuracy of 0.02 mm or better, and working with stainless steal. This would set me back around $30-50k atleast not including raw material costs, which again I'd have to go back to states to get them..(as they are specialized to each machine) and spend a few weeks to learn how to get what I need after a lot of trials...

 

Unaccompanied luggage into the country has to go thru normal customs, and we are back to 6-8 weeks for it to clear.

My issue right now is that machines that will do what I need run about $200,000. I figure a drop of 90% in price is necessary before it becomes reasonable. How long or if this will occur is something that is still up in the air.

 

3D Printing-----

Well said Sir,
Although I do think there will be uses soon for 3D printing in Boats we are some way off this, most folks seem to think just because it has been used by NASA to fix some problem way up there that we can all now just set of on some voyage and take our friendly 3D printer with us and it can make anything that we need on the journey, it is very good and has been used in industry for some time now and in particular useful in development and initial design concepts, good for use in model boats but for real boats as said we will just have to wait some time....perhaps one day we can just set of with the 3D printer and make our transport as we go along, who knows...
Interesting....

 

People who needs people.

Man this is cool, no need for people next, I seem to remember that the world was speaking about a paperless society when we went over to computers and now we need paper and use it more than ever....
No one has a crystal ball but I am sure that the world will be a whole different place in say 50 years time, making all what we say irrelevant.
But a fairline or fair hull will still be the same I would like to bet...

Cheers

 

Carbon fiber capable 3D printing

http://www.gizmag.com/markforged-mark-one-carbon-fiber-3d-printer/30642/

Not sure that this specific product will mean much, but if it is a sign of things to come, those that follow will mean a lot:

 

Very interesting

Good one P,
And who knows what the unlimited future will bring, interesting about bolt on parts and can perhaps see a time when small running repairs could be produced at speed to patch an area perhaps even save life's.
Have seen this used in Auto development years ago, but as costs reduce so markets increase eh!

Cheers