Political blurbs and agendas

Our buddy is not governmental politics in that sense. More like Sadist and Masochistic, between his ideas of boats and a lot of other peoples ideas.

 

One thing that pisses me off about political posters is there's always some weasely little trick they use to confuse the discussion and mislead people.


Trick #1: Including evidence that supports one's view but ignoring anything contrary to it.

trouty: Boat Design Forums > Open Discussion > Open Discussion
Says it all really!

trouty: I just find it very 'ironic', that you can't 'openly discuss', any item of a supposed 'political' nature - in a poll thread about whether political opinions should be allowed or not, on a forum supposedly named "open discussion" which is anything but open due to it's moderation policy?

I find it "ironic" that you quote the name of the forum, but fail to mention the topic of the thread itself, which is:

Political BLURBS and AGENDAS

That's not opinions expressed in a political thread in the open forum. It means signatures that inject politics into every thread in every forum the individual posts on. It means serious propaganda stinking up nonpolitical threads on nonpolitical forums.



Trick #2: Over-interpreting a moderate, reasonable statement to make it sound extreme and unreasonable.

gonzo: I think that political agendas and opinions should be kept out of the forum.

trouty: If were gonna keep opinions outta the posts - the boards will be bereft of comment in no time.
Doesn't Opinion - include all opinions about boats boat building materials and boat designs?

Better not have an opinion on anything?

I don't know how much of an Einstein you have to be to guess this, but I think the word "political" was meant to apply to both agendas and opinions. It's political opinions that should be kept out of nonpolitical forums. Obviously no one is going to say opinions about boat design should be banned from a boat design forum. I find it hard to believe that anyone capable of operating a computer can't at least wonder if maybe that's what the poster meant and ask him to clarify.


Trick #3: Making unfair comparisons with something unrelated but emotional to generate an unthinking knee-jerk reaction.

trouty: Polls of this kind always remind me of "the ol police - fit up question!".
"So when did you quit beating your wife?"
"When did you STOP being a *********?"

Inserting an accusation into a question is a slimy trick. A simple yes/no poll does exclude the middle ground, but that's not the same thing. There's no accusation in a yes/no question. It's more of an over-simplification. Notice those trick questions both ask WHEN something happened. The answer they both ignore is precisely the kind of options that are included in the poll: "No, I never beat my wife." or "No, I was never a *********." No, we should never allow serious politics in nonpolitical forums.

gonzo: Tongue in cheek comments are OK, but propaganda is not.
trouty: One mans Terrorist / Geurilla (sp?) is another mans freedom fighter!

It's true that what one person considers funny might offend someone else. But I think how the poster him or her self feels about the comment is not the point. I think the important thing is how other people take it, especially anyone directly affected by it. If two or more people razz each other for fun, that's fine as long as they all enjoy the teasing and they all know it's not really serious. But that has nothing to do with guerilla warfare. There's no such thing as people agreeing to being killed just for fun.


Trick #4: Including an accusation in a seemingly innocent statement.

This is very close to the tricks trouty was talking about above.

JPC: I certainly don't think there's a significant 'thin skin' problem that needs protection, and the banter is definitely part of making a good community. I'd also think that self-policing is better than a structural ban, particularly given that it's a pretty regular circle of steady participants.

First of all, I don't think anyone wants an outright ban on even mentioning politics. It's a question of Jeff's judgement in where and how to draw the line.

Second, this is just the kind of spin doctoring I don't like seeing on a nonpolitical forum. It implies that anyone who disagrees with the poster is being overly sensitive. If you say nothing, you're accepting an insult to people who don't want the forum stunk up by politics. But if you call him on it, then you're "thin-skinned" just for responding. A forum without political BS isn't a "problem", it's just a good forum. I also don't like the suggestion that partisan BS is the same thing as a couple/few guys razzing each other without them getting offended. If you're serious about it or other people object to it, it's politics. If you're not really serious and other people don't mind, then it's fun.

And finally, self policing is a joke. If someone vents their politics on the forum, then by definition they're not self policing. If you mean the group as a whole should self-police, then first, only the moderator has the power to actually delete posts or take other action. All the rest of us can do is complain, which mucks up the thread even more. And second, I don't enjoy cleaning other people's diapers when they can't restrain themselves. I appreciate any moderator who keeps their forum clean so I don't have to be distracted by political garbage.

Trick #5??

[trouty??] <moderator's note: controversial text removed>

Jeff, did you really do that? If so, what or how bad was it?

 

Thanks, Skippy; you clarified my error- it's always tough to convey a meaning when the audience isnt' there. You won't get sly implications or 'sneaks' from me; if it looks like there's one, it was my mistake.

-No implication of thin skin; I only meant that a motive for de-politicizing was to stay on boats, not to protect someone's ears.

-By self-policing, I meant at the most 'self' level, -the individual poster- not the forum. My intention was to say that a responsible poster would decide at the keyboard that, as much as he might want to vent or share something, if it's not related to the thread at hand then it doesn't belong and he would refrain. -this as opposed to 'structural' things like Jeff pulling stuff out. I think a free forum is appropriate - but when I open a post on hydrodynamics, I'd like to read about hydrodynamics -at least a little bit.

I certainly wouldn't want to take the colour and character out of posts, nor do I think that people or their ideas should be muzzled. But the valuable contributions that embody this forum get a bit eroded if a significant amount of the material under a given heading has nothing to do with that heading.

Political contributions, etc. - go for it; just name it what it actually is if it's not related to, or included with a contribution to, the boat topic. Most of it that I see is just sharing thoughts with one's community -that is: we like our discussion group, so the conversation roams a bit - I think that's good, but it needs to be judged by each poster as to whether the roaming has eclipsed the topic and should be forked off to a new thread or forum. For pure non-topic stuff, I would think a poster would want to find an audience who was tuned to the 'new' topic.

Crudely, I'm describing a kind of civic-mindedness as opposed to censoring: if the job at hand is to be done, and well, then individuals need to stick to the game at hand.

 

"If all Mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of a contrary opinion, Mankind would be no more justified in silencing him than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing Mankind.

"We can never know if the opinion we are trying to stifle is false, and even if it were, stifling it would still be evil!"

 

Thanks JPC. I'm pleasantly shocked to see real communication.

 

One new less knowledgeable members view

I am new to the forum and feel like I am not a 'true' boat man here with some members (except for my love of them and the fact I am building my fourth steel kit yacht at the moment with my own two hands and that I have sailed all my life and that I make boat kits every day, davits, boat hoists, ROV high speed cable drums and numerous other products which are all boat related which I thought would have been enough) in the sense that I am not building or designing them to the same extent as you guys, who incidentally I genuinely have the greatest respect for, and so some may say quite rightly that I am not entitled to an opinion in the same way as some of you who have far more right than me especially all the senior members who in my opinion should actually choose what should happen here in this respect in conjuction with the moderators or in fact the moderators themselves. Basically post guidelines to say exactly what you want.

I am no longer sure what is 'correct' or 'incorrect' to post so I will limit my replies to only pure boat related topics in a matter of fact manner when I can if at all with my limited knowledge but it strikes me as getting to know all the great boat community people would entail a lot more than just pure boat talk and any kind of general talking or fun on the forum must upset some people. I am sure a lot of new less knowledgable members like me will not be able to get to know anyone else unless areas of free discussion exist within the forums so that we can eventually become the senior members having the benefit of all the knowledge and experience which has gone before. Perhaps the forum is not for getting to know people, only for posting information (which is fair enough if that is what you want) and as some people must want. I thought this 'open' forum was the area where this type of topic was ok, was free and relaxed and a great area to get to know other members. Is it just politics which is unacceptable?

In business I use my personality, and although all the tees are crossed and the eyes are dotted there is still room for a little non disruptive banter, in moderation of course, perhaps in a similar way to here.

I can understand the reasons why politics can be disruptive and can actually drive a wedge between people so perhaps if it is only politics that you are objecting to it may not be so bad but I am not sure it is only politics and there have been comments about any type of deviation other than information posting. If that is what you all want in a site then it should be limited to only that and members should be told of that from the onset.

On a personal note, I think it is wonderful that Thunderhead for example feels cofortable enough with the forum to feel like he belongs amongst friends to be able to start a thread to say he has quit his job and is having a really bad day and perhaps with some joking or political satire from the members that he actually feels better after reading them but does it have anything to do with boats - yes - it sure bloody does as the community is helping that man feel better, this boating community.

As a new member I am really surprised that anyone would want to limit an open forum, if you object don't go there, and the suggestion for a new member to privately speak to other members outwith the forum if they want to discuss anything other than boats is completely rediculous as we simply wont know anyone to contact in the first place.

I am a new member, yes, but already I have met and talked to friends here who have personalities and this is undesputedly a great site and I want to be a participent here for a very long time, if you will have me.

 

Tricks?

Opinions and debating an issue is tricks now?

Nuff said!

Cheers!

 

Phew fellas this is heavy - normally I'd just bail and leave you too it but I believe that certain bits are right, certain bits are wrong!
gonzo - if you don't want the politics why start the bloody thing in the first place?
Jeff - I like your light but sensitive touch (that could be misconstrued by a few hairy men from the northern lands!)

My view is that there are times when a few political comments are right on line and need to be said; there were a few mighty pissed off southern gennlemen after 'Katrina' messed up their gardens and who can blame them! It's up to the rest of us to politely ?listen? comment and then remind 'em what we're about! Most of the people that get on these forums are seafaring people to a greater or lesser degree - we listen, talk, sort and get on with it! IF this approach fails and with who we are, it seldom does, then it's up to Jeff to slap the perpatrator's wrist firmly, but not too heavily at first!

But bottom line NO I DON'T Think we should stop a certain amount of political talk - now what about stopping talk about bloody motor boats, old stink pots upset every God fearing sailor going! See what I mean? sorry Bergalia I'll go back to frivollous now or I would If I could spell it

 

The reason I started this thread is that many posters use threads to post unrelated political ideas and agendas. If you think that, for example, a boat building material in inapropiate and say so, it's OK by me. However, if you start ranting about communism, fascism, democracy, monarchy or whatever, then I think it should be deleted. I think political comments are appropiate online and in person, in the appropiate setting. That is, in a political or personal forum. This is about boats and other marine related subjects. There can be political things that are related to it. For example, there were concerns by many about doing business in China. The apparent problem was that their form of government doesn't allow suing for damages like Western governments do. That is, in my opinion, a proper reference to politics. When used to insult or degrade other posters, definitely no.

 

Walrus, in all sincerity I take my cap off to you. An excellent, and no slight intended (for once) sober, summing up.

 

Let it run free.
I read it every now and then, its like the single line comic strip in the newspaper.
A little light entertainment between the real reason's we'r here.

You are right on the button Safewalrus.

 

Lordy sakes! people are starting to agree with me whoops! better get back to my old self (but hey thanks for agreeing with me fella's:!: it is I believe the only way to go and keep er? :idea: sane!)

 

I think there is a subversive political agenda hidden in the above quote... All those 'smilies' make me suspicious...

 

Politicians are my natural enemies and therefore I am guilty of allowing my cynical remarks run free, now and then.
I am very dependent with the marketing of my projects of international politics, and the way politicians behave and each political move may have grave influence on my projects.
So when certain decisions that are biased politically are an issue on this forum, I shall feel free to reveal the true reason for such a decision.
For the remaining, I agree with Gonzo: there is no need for debates, if regular items are discussed, to get political.

For example: the Piracy thread - well is that politically related or not? So IF political issues are to be avoided, then this sort of issues cannot be discussed.

If somebody designs a warship, and put it on the Forum, he might resat assured that political issues are part of the debates.

 

Hey Bergalia no political thread on the smileys, only just found the button and got excited (simple things!) is all!