Building my own boat. Need supervisor/controller

I am talking on what I have seen myself. The cats they built in Thailand were drawn by furniture designers from China and there were no structural drawings. They were modifying the molds by extensions and inserting wedges without any analysis of hydrostatics. Now their factory here is closed.

 

Catamaran

Sample.
Google Tanton.

 

Hey Alik


I myself choose not to make negative statements about other people work

Here is about bad engineering:

I just performed the other day a survey in Kuweit City for a large South Europe built Composite Motor Yacht wich has been recently been payed for couple of millions.

The South Europe made (I wont say in wich country wich is famous for its yachts and yacht design ) motor yacht was in my opinion mostly Junk in terms of Composite Engineering and respect of the European Recreational Craft Directive and ISO Standards
and /or respect of the Lloyds Standards
I did check closely the designs and the plans and my clear conclusion was: the South EU Yacht Builders from a country famous for its Art and design and yachts ; was just manufacturing a large piece of FRP junk; that they did successfully sell for millions.
Furthermore the motor yacht was lifted from the water and we did perform an inspection of its hull . After only a short time from launching the FRP SANDWICK hull already presents cracks and deterioration of its outer layer.
This hull was fabricated in polyester biaxial fiberglass and a 70 kg/sq meter Herex PVC core sandwich
In my opinion a vacuum infusion of polyester with a sandwich core should NOT be performed.
To manufacture such junk in my opinion is very bad engineering .

I have never seen in the Prout factory in China such practices and such bad engineering.


My colleagues from the Prout Cmpany in China were not furniture makers but very talented and really brilliant Hong Kong engineers graduates of Engineering Universities from Canada; and experienced American Canadian yacht engineers and a couple French Interns

As I said I am no pal of Jack but I do respect his and his company work




Best


Andrei Rochian

 

OK, maybe the works they did in Thailand and in China were different? I still have the 'drawings' for those boats and these drawings are crap. Basically, they were building the boats (2009) without any structural drawings.

And hope he paid You in full; the guys here were screwed and did not get the payment for last few months (it was on Thai TV)

 

Is that PolarWind's boat in the photo already?

Launched in only 3 months??? How can it be?

 

Hey Alik I am in no way fan or buddy to Doctor Jack ;

nor is the subject of my posting to vouch for the Prout Catamarans

Perhaps in Thailand they did at some point build lesser boats and sold them for low prices; as did many other boat or yacht builders; I do not know and am not interested to debate.

It is not an issue or public debate if I myself did get payed.

I think it is an issue of being fair to Prout Catamarans team's work whether or not did I get payed.


In China the Prout Catamarans are being built by vacuum infusion epoxy and Herex high density PVC ; biaxial fiberglass; and at the time I was working for Prout the 70 ft catamarans in production were surveyed by a Surveyor from Hamburg . The German Surveyor did not make at that time any negative remarks regarding the structurals.
As previously mentioned ; I just performed myself a survey on large mega yacht in United Arab Emirates built recently by very famous yacht company from a country in South Europe famous for its arts ; yachts and engineering and I did find horrible Composite Engineering and terrible structural design; very poor materials like polyester and thin fiberglass.

I am no buddy to Jack but these horrible materials I did have seen and documented employed in Eu made Mega yacht were not at all the materials employed in Prout catamarans by Dr Jack .

In my opinion quality of each boat is to be measured by applying appropriate and certified expertise;
Appropriate and Correct Composite and Structural design ; good engineering are to be made very clear by the Certification and/ or by Survey.

In my opinion quality issues are made very clear When and if a boat or yacht did apply for and was granted the CE Certification and or the Lloyds certification
http://www.lr.org/sectors/marine/Services/certification/


Here a couple images of the Prout in China Catamarans they are made in epoxy vacuum infusion composite.

 

No; the picture is for hull #1 to J1800 design. The TS was talking about building a new one to this design, in his location.

 

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I would like to remember that Design always comes before of the engineering and the rest that you talk about.
The engineer follows the creative, he follows the designer lines. Not just the opposite.

There wouldn't be innovation without the creativity.
This is a kind of rule, you should know it; the reality that moves ahead the industrial production.
Gian Paolo Nari

 

You assume that designer=creativity, but engineer is not. Why do You believe engineers are not creative? Usually they are, and even more due to their experiences and deep knowledge of engineering principles. Many pure 'designers' I met did not know how to draw smooth line on computer.

Secondly, engineer does not 'follow the designer lines', he makes the 'pictures' work, of course if it is possible. I have seen many 3Ds created by designers (I would not call them designers but artists or stylists) which were lacking sense/feasibility and would never become reality. Creativity should not be wasted.

And at the end, design even if it s a concept is not just a picture. Concept design answers the questions 'how the thing looks?' 'how it works, is it feasible?' 'what is the idea of cost to build it?'. Without answering these questions design has no value. One can draw any 'edgy' shape but it is useless unless it works.

Other than that, the designer helps the engineer to create the product.

 

Naval Engineers may be creative but they are not industrial designers. "Industrial Design is the use of both applied art and applied science to improve the aesthetics, ergonomics, functionality, and/or usability of a product, and it may also be used to improve the product's marketability and even production. The role of an industrial designer is to create and execute design solutions for problems of form, usability, physical ergonomics, marketing, brand development, and sales.[2]

Industrial design can overlap significantly with engineering design, and in different countries the boundaries of the two concepts can vary, but in general engineering focuses principally on functionality or utility of products whereas industrial design focuses principally on aesthetic and user-interface aspects of products."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_design

 

I don't know who 'Naval Engineer' is. The Naval Architect is architect, that means he is producing creative design supported by sound engineering principles.

But true, most of today's boats are drawn by stylists with only marketing in mind, and due to over exaggerated role of those self-promoted stylists. They are useless as boats and are only good for marinas. Most of them have neither proper performance nor seakeeping or functionality.

 

I imagined such kind answers by Alik.
Nothing more not corrected than his words:

"the designer helps the engineer to create the product".

He has the opposite vision on how the industrial production (boat, cars ecc ecc..) goes ahead in the world. I'm agree with Andrei.

The design always born before than the engineering calculations.
Beause the idea always born before than the "development of an idea".

Pay attention please:
I'm not talking about a question between engineer and designer, but about a question between engineering and creativity (as I wrote in my post)
And it's completely different.

I don't say that the engineers are not creative but - like you show in your post - some of them have a strange consideration in the relation between creativity/engineering.
And this consideration often is different from the real industrial design product process.

I say that the engineering follows the thought, the idea, the creativity.
Even the strange creativity.
And this idea can born by a designer, by another engineer, by a child...

I'm making a deductive reasoning as an open mind, not staying in a small circle.

A good engineer will be able, where possible, to make real one thought, that creative thought.
A bad engineer will always say in front of a new idea: "it can not be made".

How many things you have seen in your life and you thought: "it's no possible to do it in that way". Even in the nautic business.
Those things now are built.

Regards,
Gian Paolo

 

We are not designing a tea cup or a chair here. Boat should be used as boat first of all. Thus, the naval architects create the layout and concept of craft, and only THEN the designer pulls the nice shapes and fashion pieces over it. It is always done this way, in practical boat design. Designer generating rendered pictures on his own is doing anything but not boat design: average 'designer' does not know what should be the length of engine room and how to properly shape the hull - how they can lead naval architects?? No way. We had one idiot (customer's 'designer') who scaled down passenger seats by 0.85 to fit them in the shape he has drawn - excellent idea!

Do 'designers' shape airplanes in front of engineers? No, because they will not fly. But unfortunately there are some boats around that do not perform - following approach You just described. Yes, they are designed to sit in marinas. I have seen boats sitting deep stern down and without any visibility from steering and no service access to engine, with arch shaking like a hell and spray flying over the bow at SS2, only because they were started by 'designers'. Yes, they look cool in marina; not designed for the sea. My colleague naval architect well said: 'All designs started by designers end up with disasters' - this is true in most cases.

There is one more issue. Often people with engineering degree are treated as 'he has degree in engineering thus he is an engineer and so thinking in the box and so he can not design!'. Those having no any degree at all are 'I am not an engineer, so I am a designer and only I have a right to be creative! You, engineer, have to follow my lines!' This is how those people think; I meet such 'designers' very often and they likely to ask for help once their project have failed.

Again, good real-life boat designer is a synthesis of fine art and engineering knowledge. It can be one person or a team, but both talents have to participate in project from early stages. Doing right concept is naval architect's work from the beginning, to ensure efficient and safe parameters and layout of craft. Can pure designer run analysis to define optimum length/beam/displacement of craft? No. Can he define the seakeeping parameters for given speed, to make sure the craft is not too small so passengers will not vomit all the time? No. Can he evaluate the mass of craft, to shape underwater volume of hull and this way define the headroom and space for tanks? No. Does he know requirements to visibility from steering (yep, he need to calculate running trim first - can he?)? Hardly so. Will the boat with length and beam chosen by designer porpoise? He does not know... So, why the concept work should be done by designer??? Looks just ridiculous. It is naval architect who does the concept!

Remember: 'projects started by designer end up with disaster'. But this is saying is now intended more for customers, not for 'designers'.

 

A cup of tea is not easy to design; nor is it easy to successfully fabricate.
Actually a cup of tea may be more difficut to create than some may think.

In my experience very top Boat Manufacturing companies like say Brunswick or Bombardier are employing both Industrial Designers and Naval Engineers.

It is different from Boat Industry segment to another segment; Boat Manufacturing Companies 15-36-40 ft are differently structured from Catamaran Building Companies or from Mega Yacht Builders;

Small Boats are more of a mass consumer product their succcess is perhaps more determined by fresh industrial design trends ;

it is different from country to country and perhaps from company to company.

It is obvious that the latest boat design of Bavaria Motor Boats but as well the new Bvaria sail yachts are more determined by Innovative Industrial design and not by innovative Naval Architecture

And then there are exceptional architects like Zaha Hadid with her gamechanger yacht designs.

In my opinion her work is the answer :

excellence is to lead.

 

The difference between tea cup and a boat is that: everyone understands how tea cup works; not everyone understands the boat.

Mega yacht design today is driven by Kitsch and 'brand' and name of famous architect. How much of design is actually made by this architect? In many cases, just profile and interior style. Who does actual job? Please, guess.

Boat owner looking for his custom 60' one-off is somewhat different. He does not want designer's experiments for his budget. He needs proven solutions, good resale value for a time being and safety/functionality, yes and good look! Not just shocking appearance and false 'innovation' such as cabin roof all in glass (in tropics!) and tender stored under catamaran bridgedeck.