Laser Foiler!

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    Doug,

    I have to disagree. I hurt just sitting. No reason for me to use 70 year old technology which will hurt even more.

    Watching that video, I knew all the fancy talk comes from sales engineers who take home big checks.

    So, I will trust my eyes over the words of the sales man you know.

    Wayne
     
  2. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    If Doug is referring to Ian Ward (which I think he is) then he is NOT a salesman. He is a metallurgist, a passionate and highly successful sailor with years of hands-on experience, a boffin, and a very good all-round bloke.

    If he's referring to Chris Cauldicott then he's also not referring to an untrustworthy salesman IME. Chris is another passionate sailor.

    I tend to think that if they were trying to make big bucks they'd have dropped the price, especially with the high Aussie dollar. I'd be surprised if anyone at my old club or current club (which have 70+ active Lasers between them) paid $5800 for a set of foils; you can get a second-hand foiling Moth for that price.
     
  3. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    OK, I went back and watched the video.

    My eyes told me the same thing, a second time.

    I did not say they lied, or were untrustworthy, you took that implication based upon my saying they were selling something.

    It is a young man's device. It is not a "people's" foiling system. And someone is making good money off of this device.

    Would I try it if I was in great shape? Maybe. And it would be fun. But, none of that changes what can be seen in the video.

    This 'method' was applied to water skis in the early 1960's. http://www.hydrofoil.org/history.html and http://www.hydrofoil.org/images/Busta2.jpg

    And I hurt too much, and most people are not in good enough shape, to try this device.

    So, if they make money off of the device, great! More power to them. But, I still do not think this will take off and become the "people's foil."

    Wayne

    PS: Why do some people get offended when sales men make a profit?
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Laser Foiler

    I was speaking of Ian Ward who I have the greatest respect for.
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =================
    I'm sorry Wayne, that is incorrect-as it applies to sailboats: the first sailing bi-foiler with a wand controlled altitude system happened in 1999. The technique of sailing it with "Veal Heel" came about 2001-the technique is nearly as important as the development of a sailboat sailed with just two hydrofoils(1999).
    I think what you're remarking about is that the guy sailing the Laser is "hiking"-leaning out to keep the boat more or less flat? Well ,there is nothing in that that disqualifies a boat from being a "Peoples Foiler" though there will be monofoilers or multifoilers sooner or later where hiking is not necessary-but thats another story. The add-on foils don't mean the boat with bi-foils is a "Peoples Foiler" only that it is, perhaps, a Peoples Foiler wanabe-the sales-and the people will make it a Peoples Foiler --or not.
     
  6. SteveMellet
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    SteveMellet Senior Member

    Hi Doug,
    My comments about the Laser were just that they probably selected it to develop foils for, not because it's the right platform to use, but because there are a lot of them around so their target market is huge - which is brilliant business strategy.
    I do think they have probably made some serious compromises to achieve this though, the boat is heavier than would be ideal for a foiler - so the foils probably must develop more lift than would be the case if they had a lighter platform. This might be a trade-off in ultimate top-end speed. But it is better than designing a foiler that is hard to sail and has no target market, so I hope they sell lots of them and are successful. Perhaps finding a way to lower production costs would help them.
    And if they are foiling in 10-12knots, reaching speeds of 20knots in the process, then yes, it is a revolution !:D
     
  7. SteveMellet
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    SteveMellet Senior Member

    ..And on the subject of light weight boats this could be applied to, imagine when they show us the retrofit kit to get a 30kg PDR foiling.. THAT would be a people's foiler, for sure.
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==============
    I think you're right-those are fairly large foils so the trade-off is definitely to foil in lighter air and sacrifice some top end speed. And your last sentence describes their performance so far.
    It will be a far easier boat to launch and sail than is a Moth.
     
  9. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    How is it easier to launch a 130lb boat with fragile deep draft than a <50lb boat?

    I like the effort. I don't like the price (not a judgement on value or cost, just the opinion of one old laser owner). How does the foil price compare to new moth foils? An upgrade for the vast laser market is a winner, but as a product the only advantage I see is that it is a much more tolerable boat than a moth when the wind dies down.

    I had an idea for a laser wing rig I should get to work on. The foil can make use of lower drag/lift to sail upwind.

    When I see the foiling Moth, my inclination is to take advantage of the reduced requirements for hull form and make a foiling dingy that can break down for transport on planes and buses. But then again, that's my wish for all boats -to minimize storage and transport cost.
     
  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===========
    If you read the Laser Foiler info they say the foils are retractable and that you only need knee deep water to get aboard. The Moth does not have retractable foils and you have to wade out chest deep to get aboard. The Laser is far more stable than a Moth is off the foils. And as I understand it will foil upwind.
    The Moth is the fastest sailboat of any kind under 20' with the possible exception of the Flying Phantom modified F 18. But foiling is a whole lot of fun regardless of speed and thats where the Laser will come in though 20 knots off the wind has been reported in 10-12 knts of wind with a heavy crew. Not bad for an easy to sail foiler.
     
  11. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    I am surprised the foil is retractable because the dagger board box is angled back about 20 degrees and the foiler is vertical. Knee deep works for me! Foiling upwind? Great! They may sell me yet.

    If you don't want to swim, don't get on a moth.
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Foiling Laser

    Here is a picture posted yesterday on SA-click:
     

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  13. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    It does look like this is progress toward a 'peoples foiler'. Of course it's a bit expensive. but just about any new technology is. Over time, there will be a build up of these foils, then a market saturation, then the price will come down.

    Of course it's not for everybody. The design compromises needed to make this thin work somewhat degrade the practicality of the boat. But an ordinary dagger board can be used for beach sailing and sight seeing with the foil apparatus added only for hot rodding.
     
  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==============
    shrapii2, how so?
     

  15. Chenier
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    Chenier Junior Member

    I'm not a designer, but I have several small daggerboard boats, including a Laser -- as do the couple of dozen folks I sail with. Several of us are pretty excited about this. Our core activity is and will be our weekly one-design racing but - blame it on ETNZ these past few weeks - the foiling bug in general is now contagious among us.

    I showed that Laser video clip to some members and they are stoked. Not to spend five or six grand - many of us only have two grand into each of our typical boats - but to start hacking around with the materials and skill levels we have.

    So here are the questions:

    Let's say we pick up with the idea of a modified daggerboard, one with a foil added, inserted from the bottom and adjusted only for depth, when we get out on the water. Is it possible to hydrofoil a dinghy on fixed, non-adjustable foils?

    If it is possible, what fixed angles (and other characteristics) would we be looking at for the board and rudder, for a few of the more typical conditions - say 10 knots and 15 knots? That would be for perhaps a 150 lb 14 ft boat with a 180 lb skipper.

    Even if we didn't optimize perforformance, if we could get a rough solution with really cheap or DYI foils, that would be quite an accomplishment.

    Is this a reasonable approach? And If so can the foil angles and dimensions be estimated? My vision (daydream) here would be to have a single pair of inexpensive-to-make foils perhaps suitable for a very narrow range of conditions, perhaps tailored for our club's venue, and then if we want more range, build some more to the different specs. I have a stack of old daggerboards and rudders in my garage I'm ready to sacrifice for the cause.
     
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