TP52s

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by mighetto, Nov 1, 2004.

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  1. mackid068
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    mackid068 Semi-Newbie Posts Often

    That's not planing...that's DEFINATELY a stern wake.
     
  2. Jim Hauser
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    Jim Hauser Junior Member

    You know that, I know that. The problem isn't us, it's Migghie. I find his delusional desing explanations a good chuckle. I don't abide by his personal attacks, they are in poor form and unwarranted.
     
  3. mackid068
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    mackid068 Semi-Newbie Posts Often

    Personal attacks are certainly poor form. But Mighetto, you didn't answer my question. Why is the Mac 26 such an 'excellent' cruiser/racer in your opinion? None of that PHRF stuff...just tell me, from a design standpoint, why.
     
  4. sailsmall
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    sailsmall Senior Member

    If you really want the complete answer, just check his website. He's got enough material there for you to be laughing for days if you actually read it all.
     
  5. Jim Hauser
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    Jim Hauser Junior Member

    Don't read if you suffer from a weak bladder or currently recovering from the cold that's going around. If you do, have 911 on speed dial. You will need an ambulance to take you to the hospital to stop the laughing cough spasms.
     
  6. mackid068
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    mackid068 Semi-Newbie Posts Often

    While I will read his website, I want to hear this from the 'horse's mouth,' so to speak.
     
  7. mackid068
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    mackid068 Semi-Newbie Posts Often

    I found something QUITE funny on Mighetto's site. "Outstanding hull symmetry and balance allow unballasted motoring and sailing which is unusual for a production trailerable sailboat."
    Hold on here! MacGregor's site says:

    "OPERATING WITHOUT WATER BALLAST.
    There may be times when you wish to operate the boat with an empty ballast tank...Since only a few miles per hour are lost with a full tank, we recommend that most of your use of the boat be with a full tank."
    AND: "THE WATER BALLAST TANK SHOULD BE FULL WHEN EITHER POWERING OR SAILING.

    IF THE BALLAST TANK IS NOT COMPLETELY FULL, THE BOAT IS NOT SELF RIGHTING. (IF YOU CHOOSE TO OPERATE THE BOAT WITH AN EMPTY TANK, SEE THE SECTION ON OPERATING THE BOAT WITHOUT WATER BALLAST.)"

    "Experienced deep keel racing sailors have a hard time with this and insist on pulling the Mac26x boom in as close to the centerline as possible to race into the wind, as would be done on a heavy keel boat rigged for racing."

    Well, I THINK you'd want to crank in on the main (bringing in the boom) when you beat upwind.

    And when he says that centerboards with water ballast are better than deep keels for racers, I KNOW he's off his rocker...the idea of a deep keel with a bulb and such is to get the weight (say this in a Barry White voice) low...now, water ballast only puts the weight as low as the bottom of the boat (or something of that nature)...so, all I have to say is see the picture below.

    "The additional observation that the Mac26x dances like a butterfly when on the anchor supports the notion that the vessel is a form of trimaran." Uh...how is a boat with one hull a "trimaran" ? (*COUGH* SEE PICTURE ON BOTTOM *COUGH*)

    This is the title of one of Mighetto's 'Myths' that he 'debunks': "OCEAN CRUISING SAILBOATS MUST BE LARGER THAN 60 FEET." Who ever said that? I know I didn't. And neither did J. Slocum...nor did many other sailors...

    "Documented Mac26x cruisers can be commisioned by the US armed forces in a time of need and hence the theft of one of them is treated like the theft of any US Navy vessel." Mighetto, can I have some of what you're smoking?

    "The Mac26x and m models have a life raft built into them owing to solid flotation." Great. So do many other boats.

    "Hence they are endorsed by the manufacturer for unballasted operation under power and sail." Yeaaaaaa....no. See my earlier comments.

    "the Mac26x is not prone to capsize. She is also self righting." No, it's not ALWAYS self-righting. The ballast tank needs to be filled first...as you and MacGregor said.

    "Displacement mode, forced mode, planing, and the 4th mode." Huh?

    This is according to Roger MacGregor: "The more surface in contact with the water, the slower the boat will go. A 10 degree angle of heel reduces this area significantly." Wait a second. I thought you try to keep your boat (at least most often) FLAT. That's faster...

    And please DON'T compare the Etap26 to the Mac26. You're just insulting a boat (the Etap) that actually is a sailboat worthy of the label of "ocean worthy."

    Again, Mighetto's crack pipe before writing the material on his site:

    [​IMG]
     
  8. barleymalt
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    barleymalt Junior Member

    Be carefull what you wish for. No matter what amount of fact, evidence, or expert opinion is presented to him, Mighetroll keeps repeating the same bizarre theories over and over and over. It is amusing at first, but utterly pointless.
     
  9. mackid068
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    mackid068 Semi-Newbie Posts Often

    But at least I'd like to give him the opportunity to address what he's written while clearly drugged....
     
  10. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    found something QUITE funny on Mighetto's site. "Outstanding hull symmetry and balance allow unballasted motoring and sailing which is unusual for a production trailerable sailboat."
    Hold on here! MacGregor's site says:

    "OPERATING WITHOUT WATER BALLAST.
    There may be times when you wish to operate the boat with an empty ballast tank...Since only a few miles per hour are lost with a full tank, we recommend that most of your use of the boat be with a full tank."
    AND: "THE WATER BALLAST TANK SHOULD BE FULL WHEN EITHER POWERING OR SAILING.


    This is a common mistake to make but you need to be careful. The material you are quoting is in regards to Macgregors latest and less advanced sailboat. This boat was introduced owing to Teter's involvement in the 2002 drunken boaters case.

    In March of 2003, MacGregor introduced the all new MacGregor 26M, to replace the 26X that had been in production for 7 years. Approximately 5000 of the X had been produced before being replaced by the M. The new boat is substantially different from the old.

    The substantial difference appears to be related to racing. In the X marketing the following statement is telling.

    Here are your sailing choices: (1) With the water ballast tank full and conservative sails, the 26 is an extremely stable sailboat, ideal for a beginner. (2) With the big genoa jib or spinnaker, it is a conventional self righting sailboat with outstanding sailing speed. (3) Without water ballast, it is one of the wildest and potentially fastest sailboats around. Under power (1) without water ballast, it is a rather fast conventional cabin cruiser, or (2) with the water ballast, a docile, heavily ballasted power boat. ... Quick, stable and responsive, the revolutionary MacGregor 26 is the fastest and best handling of any of the trailerable cruising sailboats.

    The M's substantial difference is best summed up as "she is not for racing" or "she is more of a blue water cruiser than a trailerable". The X while not a race boat, is a very fast cruiser capable of racing ballasted or unballasted. The X is an ocean cruiser-racer when ballasted and becomes an Ultra-Light ocean racer when unballasted. For someone who has learned to sail in the US and is set in the ways of keel boat sailing the M truly will be the faster sailboat. But for a Jack and Jill crew familiar with Tasar sailing the X has race potentitial that is as Macgregor Yachts states revolutionary.


    IF THE BALLAST TANK IS NOT COMPLETELY FULL, THE BOAT IS NOT SELF RIGHTING. (IF YOU CHOOSE TO OPERATE THE BOAT WITH AN EMPTY TANK, SEE THE SECTION ON OPERATING THE BOAT WITHOUT WATER BALLAST.)"

    For the X the operating instructions state that for unbalasted sailing you have to keep your hand on the main sheet. One chooses to operate the boat with an empty tank when racing in less than 7MPH wind. If you add 300 lbs of internal ballast you can get away with 11 MPH apparent. Murrelet is rated for the extra pounds. It is important to realize that the manufacturer intented the X vessel to operate under sail unballasted but that this is the only model it has produced that is authorized by the manufacturer to do so.


    "Experienced deep keel racing sailors have a hard time with this and insist on pulling the Mac26x boom in as close to the centerline as possible to race into the wind, as would be done on a heavy keel boat rigged for racing."

    Well, I THINK you'd want to crank in on the main (bringing in the boom) when you beat upwind.

    You sail the boat as a high performance vessel meaning that even down wind the boat sees apparent wind that is forward. Of course I am chatting normal wind. The main sail of the X is not the largest sail. The power is from the Genoa. Pulling the main to centerline doesn't do what a keel boater is trained to think it does. I love chatting about this because the best I can describe things is that the X boat is towed through the water by its main sheet. In other words it is like the tow boat operator attached a tow line where the main sheet is attached (usually midships). Bethwaite chats about the tendency to centerline to much on high performance vessels. I certainly note better upwind performance by easing of on the main sheet.


    And when he says that centerboards with water ballast are better than deep keels for racers, I KNOW he's off his rocker...the idea of a deep keel with a bulb and such is to get the weight (say this in a Barry White voice) low...now, water ballast only puts the weight as low as the bottom of the boat (or something of that nature)...so, all I have to say is see the picture below.

    This is becoming common knowledge owing to the racing machines that use the type of water ballast used in the Mac26x cruisers. I think the same kind of ballast could be added to a TP52 that is converted to IRC. The conversion would allow removal of much of the weight from the keel and replacement of that with what is called inertial ballast. THis ballast is low but not on centerline. It is to the sides of the vessel and is similar to the twin keel vessels that up until the last decade or so were the most popular keel for thos purchasing under 37 footers in Britian. I will elablorate later

    "The additional observation that the Mac26x dances like a butterfly when on the anchor supports the notion that the vessel is a form of trimaran." Uh...how is a boat with one hull a "trimaran" ? (*COUGH* SEE PICTURE ON BOTTOM *COUGH*)

    Skating at anchor is common on multihulls. The Mac26x actully sails faster reefed under certain conditions because she is meant to be sailed flat like a multihull. Of course with the full complement of 4 the boat need not be reefed.

    This is the title of one of Mighetto's 'Myths' that he 'debunks': "OCEAN CRUISING SAILBOATS MUST BE LARGER THAN 60 FEET." Who ever said that? I know I didn't. And neither did J. Slocum...nor did many other sailors...

    I have come to think of any boat over 37 foot as excessive for ocean use. But even today you can open up Sail, read about the Flying Tigers and the Macgregor 19 and be told by an author that the average size for an ocean going sailboat is over 40 foot. You can also see that the trend in ocean sailboat design - the future of yacht design is smaller not larger.


    "Documented Mac26x cruisers can be commisioned by the US armed forces in a time of need and hence the theft of one of them is treated like the theft of any US Navy vessel." Mighetto, can I have some of what you're smoking?

    This is my understanding. I also understand that no local athority, no police officer, no marina authority, no one except a federal authority may board a commisioned vessel for any purpose. We are documenting Murrelet. Several Mac26x vessels have done so. It blows the minds of many who believe the vessel two small for this. These boats are 5 ton by volume.


    "The Mac26x and m models have a life raft built into them owing to solid flotation."

    Great. So do many other boats.

    Sure, many power boats. But unfortunately the Etap 26i and the Macgregors represent about all of the sailboats. The Flying Tigers for example do not have this important feature. That feature means they will never be considered for Olympic competition.

    "the Mac26x is not prone to capsize. She is also self righting."

    No, it's not ALWAYS self-righting. The ballast tank needs to be filled first...as you and MacGregor said.

    In a test pool she is self righting even unballasted. This is all that was necessary in EU to qualify as a self righting sail boat. Of coarse the operator is expected to fill tanks when conditions warant that. But when racing capsize is an acceptable risk. The safe boat qualities of the vessel make it even more so. We are trained to right a capsized X by using the windward rudder. The boat automatically heads to wind. However, I know of only two who have ever had ocasion to test this out. I suspect that to force a capsize you have to retract a few foils. The foils round the vessel up automatially when heel is excessive.

    Displacement mode, forced mode, planing, and the 4th mode." Huh?

    This is according to Roger MacGregor: "The more surface in contact with the water, the slower the boat will go. A 10 degree angle of heel reduces this area significantly." Wait a second. I thought you try to keep your boat (at least most often) FLAT. That's "faster...


    10 degrees is flat. over 17 is off optimum and 45 degrees still isn't a knock down. We call 45ers dips.

    And please DON'T compare the Etap26 to the Mac26. You're just insulting a boat (the Etap) that actually is a sailboat worthy of the label of "ocean worthy."

    The Mac26x is far more seaworthy than the Etap26i because the MaC26x will plane her way out of storm conditions. The Etap26i is not able to do so. She is only 1000lbs heavier than a Mac26x. Did you know that?


    Again, Mighetto's crack pipe before writing the material on his site:

    [​IMG]


    Spoken like a republican. Do you see how the only talking point left to a partisan republican is Shut the Fack Up. Our drug of choice is Glenfiddich Single Malt. The Church of the Future of Yacht Design is now open.

    Murrelet
    1999 Mac26x
    Olympia Washington
     
  11. mackid068
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    The crack pipe has been removed. For it was unwarranted and a stupid attack on my part.

    "The Mac26x is far more seaworthy than the Etap26i because the MaC26x will plane her way out of storm conditions. The Etap26i is not able to do so. She is only 1000lbs heavier than a Mac26x. Did you know that?"

    The Etap is plenty fast under power. Big inboard diesel is fine by me.

    "I have come to think of any boat over 37 foot as excessive for ocean use. But even today you can open up Sail, read about the Flying Tigers and the Macgregor 19 and be told by an author that the average size for an ocean going sailboat is over 40 foot. You can also see that the trend in ocean sailboat design - the future of yacht design is smaller not larger. "

    You could argue that. ANd it makes sense that smaller boats are better, but only up to a point. Once you get under 20 feet, I wouldn't even CONSIDER going on an ocean (unless absolutely neccesary).

    Ok. So, I understand your points, but I disagree.

    "Documented Mac26x cruisers can be commisioned by the US armed forces in a time of need and hence the theft of one of them is treated like the theft of any US Navy vessel."

    The US armed forces can take over a boat, yes, but any boat owned by an american can be co-opted for government use with reasonable need.

    Now, I just want to address something. You may be wondering why I'm interested in this. Well, when I began my sailing 'career' I was a fan of the Mac26. But I was told by a sailor friend of mine, a man with years of experience, that the Mac26 wasn't seaworthy. I disagreed and then researched it. He seemed right. I now am of the opinion that the MacGregor 26, if not a boat for Long Island Sound and other saltwater areas with highly variable weather conditions, is certainly capable of sailing (though not like a Catalina of the same size, and certainly not like a Laser, which, I'll admit is my favorite sailboat, but of an entirely different type) and motoring, somewhat. That's my 2 cents. While no Laser, the Mac 26 is a decent vessel, if you're willing to accept that it is a 50%/50% boat. If I wanted a motorsailer, I would want a 100%/100% boat.
     
  12. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    Well, under 20 has not been proven as seaworthy. Yet that is what many find preferable to 40 plus footers when the seas are really bad. Do you know that Mystic Seaport has a Laurance Guiles 20 footer they are restoring. I only hope they are serious. We would have had that vessel restored in but a few months out of the Center For Wooden boats in Seattle. Getting back on topic.

    For the TP52s to place 1,2 and 3 in the Transpac rule bending was required. the number 3 boat was caught at that and disqualified. John Guzzwel's boat Coruba, a Santa Cruise 70 took the honors instead. Guzzwell is of course the builder of the Laurance Guiles Trekka, a vessel that originally was proposed to be a twin keeler.

    I love chatting about boats and can offer additional insights on ocean cruising a small vessel. The general shape of the hull should be cods head and macrell tail. This is owing to the need to heave to or lie ahull during bad weather and for the crew to catch some sleep. Trekka was rigged as a yawl and while this rigging has never been explained I suspect it was owing to race rules that made it fashionable. Apparently the extra sail cloth wasn't reflected in ratings. Nonetheless, I suspect the aft sail useful in heaving to. My boat lies ahull very niecely with the cockpit enclosure up. But in racing form, no enclosure, she doesn't head up as much as I would like.
     
  13. Jim Hauser
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    Jim Hauser Junior Member

    Coruba is NOT a SC70. It's a N/M 68
    It is not owned by Guzzwell, it's owned by Rob and Suzanne Fleming.
     
  14. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    Was Guzwell crew? This is number 3 we are chatting about right?
     

  15. Jim Hauser
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    Jim Hauser Junior Member

    If you just look at the TransPac website it's clear as day that 3rd place goes to Coruba a Nelson Marek 68. The owner's are Rob and Suzanne Fleming. Why do you post lies and then claim innocence when you know you are wrong to start with?
     
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