Damaged Rudder-fix or build new

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Brian Fredrik, Oct 5, 2005.

  1. Brian Fredrik
    Joined: Oct 2005
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    Location: Kent, New York

    Brian Fredrik Junior Member

    I own a Ranger 26 (Gary Mull, 1970). The rudder seems to have become partially detached from the stock as the rudder has a new sloppy feel. I suspect that this is either from water intruding, freezing and creating voids or from broken and or rusting attachments within the rudder. The exterior of the rudder shows two small (5cm) cracks in the fiberglass which have obviously been created from pressure within. Should I try to repair or design and build a new one (with the added benefit of reducing weather helm)? Please know that my next thread will be how. Thank you.
     
  2. Tim B
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    Tim B Senior Member

    There's no real harm in trying a repair job, it's GRP so it's fairly easy. just cut away the affected area, then insert new structure to be in-keeping with the old. If it turns out to be a huge job, then go and re-design it.

    If you can rescue it it will be cheaper,

    Tim B.
     
  3. MarioCoccon
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    Location: Puerto Rico

    MarioCoccon Senior Member

    Hi: I do a couple of rudders, if it not blended this is my recomendation. Cut the oldfiber away include the foam. Then if the post have a good SS plate attached its ok is not, cut the old rotten steel plate and weld a SS one big size. I sail once with only the plate with the sails reefed but I maked came back to port. once you have the plate attached buy two part foam 3M mixed and prepared your desire rudder. I always do a little bit bigger or more modern style all dependsif you are happy with your performance or no. In the floor you mix the foam once is dry present the rudder in the boat and start cutting the foam with a nife the big chunks. when you think you are closer start sanding by hand after you create your rudder. At this time its gone to be delicate be careful can broken. Final step put Matt and resin 1/4 of layer its ok for that size can be more if you want to. Its not a big deal just a time and you can economize 2,500 grands in a new rudder. I read about my C&C 35 mk1 that the boat have problem windward, and downwind because the rudder was to small in a huracane the rudder blend 90 degrees and the fiber disappear that was my first rudder and still working in regattas with a incredible performance. Its more bigger and diferent shape and the boat run more than before try it and good luck. Friend from the Caribbean
     
  4. ErminoMazzarino
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    Location: Kitty Hawk, NC

    ErminoMazzarino Junior Member

    Mario,

    Do you think that manufacturing an outside rudder/with tiller as you described with 3M foam would work as well. I own a Islander 24 with Rudder and Tiller. Both need repairs. Your ideas sound reasonable. Where did you get the 3M foam.?

    Ermino Mazzarino
     
  5. MarioCoccon
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    Location: Puerto Rico

    MarioCoccon Senior Member

    Hi Ermino, just for understand I refer make a new rudder not and outside one. Sounds like you think I am talking about in the transom if that you understand please dont do that. A friend of my do that in a Cal 25 and the boat have and incredible weather helm that sometimes he cant control the boat. Every boat was balance in the factory. But my idea of making a new rudder was in the same place was before. Just do in your way more bigger or smaller just think in what you are looking for. More speed, weather helm, apointment. When you know what you want maked in foam and then covered with fiber. But before replace the plate of the rudder in case was smaller or bad steel for Stainless. Weld a bigger one you dont want a little plate eating your foam and in case of loose the rudder you can still steereing with the plate believe me. The foam I get it in a store here in Puerto Rico that sell resin, fiber ,acetone its common stuff is matter of find them. Good luck and thanks for believe in my ideas happy sailing
     
  6. Tim B
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    Tim B Senior Member

    Is the current rudder a spade rudder or transom-hung rudder?

    Either way, be careful that the adjustments you make advance the design in the way you want. If you have any questions feel free to e-mail me.

    Tim B
     
  7. MarioCoccon
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    Location: Puerto Rico

    MarioCoccon Senior Member

    Hi Ermino, if your delamination looks to bad for you at first sight, I will do cut with a grinder de bad area dont worry if you look the foam. Then apply the fiber if I was you sand the all rudder leavin them in the natural resin color. one you do that apply epoxy resin not poliester because epoxy protect more the rudder and stick better. Use matt fiber the one looks like hair if better to put more that little. With that you can sand in your way without the risk of leave a skinny area of fiber. Good luck feel free to ask me before friday I gone to be in the Virgin Islands for ten days until this saturday and came back next sunday.
     
  8. Tim B
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    Tim B Senior Member

    Interesting advise, Mario. Most of us say NEVER mix resin systems. ie. epoxy on epoxy or polyester on polyester.
     
  9. ErminoMazzarino
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    ErminoMazzarino Junior Member

    Hi Tim,

    I know that applies with paint, Laytex/oil. But didn't realize that Polyester and Epoxy were so different. Polyester is Resin based/oil and Epoxy is Resin based/oil. Is your concern that the Carbon in the Polyester products, would not allow bonding and delaminate.? Will you explain your reasoning further.? This is the first I've heard of not mixing the two.

    Thanks Tim...Ciao..Ermino
     
  10. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Ciao, epoxy can go over ortho or isophthalic-polyester and vinylester but not the other way around. Even though vinylester is much tougher and has much higher elongation and tensile strength then iso and ortho resins, it is no match for epoxy, nor going to stay stuck to epoxy very well. Your understanding of the chemistry could be better served by a quick search for epoxy, polyester, orthophthalic, etc. on this site, as several threads have been posted covering them.

    You may want to consider using one of the manufactured HDPE rudder blades available from Idasailor Marine (and others). They're tough, have good shapes, don't split, delaminate or swell from moisture intrusion.
     
  11. ErminoMazzarino
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    Location: Kitty Hawk, NC

    ErminoMazzarino Junior Member

    Hi Par, how are you today.?

    Good Point, I will check out the threads regarding painting today. Can you give an estimated date that the threads appeared. Good information to have a background in. I'm using more resin based products and I sure that I will be using more in the future.! HDPE.? what is the acronum.? and what is the product.?

    My wife "Delana" will be to come around. But once she realizes that it's a pleasurable experience and not all work, I think that she will enjoy it and maybe become an enthusiast.? Time and the way I approach it will tell.

    My thoughts are to play with the Islander 23 in the Albemarle Sound and Intra coastal. The smaller boat; Antanta '13 sailboat, in the Sound only. I would like to play in this way for a few years. I want the boys to feel comfortable on and in the water and able to move around freely on a boat. That is why your suggestion of just cleaning her up and sailing her fits so well.

    Eventually, I would like to sail the Hawaiian Islands, but not to the Hawaiian Islands. The water is warm, fishing is great, the trade winds blow every day like clockwork and the Islands are close enough to each-other that it's a day cruise or a week end cruise at most.

    I've checked prices to ship the Islander to the Big Island, Hawaii and all the shipping companies want 8 times more for shipping than I paid for the boat.! So that's not going to happen. Most likely I will buy another boat maybe a 28 up to about a 34 Footer. The boat can be Beamie and comfortable because I'm not planning on Blue Water Sailing, only Island Hoping.

    The Islander 23 is my training program. Breaking in period for my wife and the boys. Over the next 3-4 years I will be puttering around here. Learning to sail, repair boats, repair sails, engines, learn about sail boats & motor boats, but with the cost of gas-that doesn't seem like a good investment and to navigate. There are several good schools nearby including the Coast Guard.

    How about you Par, what are your plans.? Do you build and repair boats.? Are you no-longer sailing.?

    Enough of my dribble for now, I need to get back to work...Ciao..Ermino
     

  12. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    High Density PolyEthylene is the stuff, a plastic, basically inert, not effected by most things it will come in contact with in the water. It has a near neutral density when in the water so the weight hanging off a transom doesn't effect handling qualities.

    You sound like you have a good plan, get the kids some sea legs then they can hark on their mother about it. Staying in the sheltered waters of a sound is good, you'll learn how to handle the boat. Toss a home made boom vang on her and have fun. The experience will give you ideas and teach you how to get the best out of her.

    Sailing in the relatively open waters around the Hawaiian islands is quite different then the ICW. You'll want a good sea boat for that, a rental maybe. Try your hand in a bare boat ride off the cape and see how you like it. You may decide it's better left to the pictures in the magazines.

    The dates for previous posts on various subjects are countless and many. Try simple searches like "epoxy", "oil paint", "polyester" etc. you get more hits and have more to read through but you'll find loads of information.

    I restore them, do a little design work, repairs and new construction. I just got rid of my only working sailboat and must finish something to go sailing again. I have three sailboats under construction, another one for major repairs and two powerboats, one missing her garboards. I currently have a custom aluminum sailboat on the drawing board for a guy in Oregon, a keel, rudder and new sail plan for a fellow in Arizona, and a few other odds and ends to keep the other half out of my hair for a while.

    Sail your boat, keep in light winds until you get the boom vang installed and have some confidence built up. Winter sailing in your area is great, I'm out a few times a week a few hundred miles south of you. Use her, fix her as you go and you'll pick it up.
     
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