New Block Or Reuse Old Block

I agree - you want to actually measure the parts to see what needs replacing.

 

personally if you knew the bores had no wear I would use a flex hone, faster easier and better finish if the bores are true to start with.
http://www.brushresearch.com/flex-hone.php?gclid=CIHdxfaMsbYCFct56wodriQAQA

If you use a fixed parallel hone you will find out if there is wear in your bore or most other issues less you measure it
http://www.amazon.com/HONING-KITS-STONES-Ammco-Cylinder/dp/images/B003CKOY84

 

Was there rust in all the cylincers, or just some of them? If it was just in some, it could have been caused by condensation from air getting in through open exhaust valves...

It's pretty easy to tell the difference between rust caused by damp air and rust caused by standing water; the standing water would've left rings as it dried.

 

I disagree in that you measure the parts, to see what needs replacing in this application. What you have is a rebuild of dubious or at least questionable quality, with significant maintenance and negligence issues, tossed in for good measure, so you just assume it all blows and yank out all the consumables, clean, check clearances, then order the appropriate rings, bearings, seals and gaskets for the spec's you've personally confirmed.

Now, some might just fill the cylinders with Marvel Mystery Oil, let it sit for a day or two, drain it and hope for the best when they fire the thing up, but this isn't the wisest course, for obvious reasons. This gets done often and I've done it, but only when I know what's going on with the internals, prior to the need to "pickle" it.

 

I have made engines run after the rings were rusted to the walls lots of time. If you can get it rotate after soaking it in penetrating oil (ATF works well for this), the rust damage to the cylinders will usually result in it burning a lot of oil, but otherwise runs okay (except fouling the plugs often).

I have found it much better to hone the cylinders and install new rings. Not likely it will need over-boaring and new pistons.

This is what I suggest: hone the walls with light oil and a soft brush hone (flex hone) until it feels smooth. You will still see a shadow of a rust stain, which is okay, to remove it all will take off too much metal. Take the block and your pistons to an auto machine shop and ask them to measure the piston clearance. they will have precision tools to do this, if they are within spec for clearance than you just need new rings. If the bores have too much clearance, than leave the block with the machine shop to order new over-sized pistons, rings, etc and have them over-boar and final hone the engine.

The rest of the engine is likely fine to reuse, if the seals are still soft and undamaged, than they can stay and be reused. You will need a new head gasket of course, and pan gasket, but the manifold gaskets can be reused if they are undamaged. this will save a lot of money just to buy the head and pan gaskets, and not buy a whole gasket kit. Make sure you follow the torque values and tightening sequence from the service maul for the head and correct torque values for crank and connecting rods.

If you had the head gasket leak and that cause the rusting of the cylinders you better have the heads checked for being flat and free of cracks. the auto machine shop can check that for you as well. If there is any deep corrosion pitting you may want to have it looked at, the pitting itself may be okay to leave it, as long as it is not a cause of leak.

I have done this lots of times on a number of different engines. If after you clean up the rust and everything is within spec, just put in new rings after honing the cylinders. If it is out of spec, you will need to do more than just new rings and a hone. Usually piston to cylinder clearnace is only 0.003", so there is not a lot of metal you can remove from the walls before you go out of spec. This is why I think the brush hone would be better, it takes off less metal.

If you are going to stop the engine for longer than a week or so, you might want to spray some LPS or AFT down the intake and turn the engine over a few times (without starting it) to protect the cylinders from rusting. I have had it happen after only 3 months without running, though usually they can sit for a year or more if they are sealed up from damp air. Sometimes it is just bad luck, but if I know the engine is not going to be run for a long time, I put some light oil down each spark plug hole.

 

troy there was rust on about half of them.. some surface rust wiped right off but maybe 3 pistons are covered with rust... I am going out to the shop and pore atf on the pistons and see if it unfreez. I cant see and where on the heads that looks like a leak or anything... what should I do

 

I still disagree. If you're honing an engine, all the bearings and seals will be removed. If you're going to this trouble, you're already half way through a fresh rebuild, assuming you don't need any more machine work. Making a slurry of metal bits in each cylinder and reassembling with the crank and other internals in place is just asking for a problem. I would never pull an engine apart, hone and reused the old, "torque set" bearings, regardless of what condition they're in. Some gaskets can be reused, but again, if it's stripped down, honed and cleaned, a couple of hundred bucks later, you've got a fresh rebuild and a level playing field on the bearing, seals, etc.

While you're there, magnaflux the heads, block and other components. No sense putting junk back in, besides a quick magnaflux or better yet a dye penetrant doesn't cost much (maybe $60 bucks). I'd also do a pressure test, before it was pulled apart. It just doesn't make any sense to disassemble an engine without standard precautions and procedures. This poster doesn't have a clue how the engine ran, how it was rebuilt, how it was maintained and it's clear it's been neglected, so why take the chance. Based on the evidence available, a full tear down, clean and at least a quick hone is in order.

Now, this doesn't mean he couldn't get lucky with the magic oil treatment of choice, but this is a crap shoot on an engine, with the evidence and neglect obvious on this motor.

 

guys I look on the bottom of the heads and found this... if pic don't show up plz click on link to see bottom of heads.... im thinking a full rebuild is in order


http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a505/syngledad36/Snapbucket/08E09E02_zps7af81796.jpg

http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/syngledad36/media/Snapbucket/08E09E02_zps7af81796.jpg.html

 

sorry PAR, you do not know what you are talking about. If the parts are within spec they can be reused, this included bearing, seals, and everything else.

I worked in the engine room for fully factory backed racing car team for 5 year, we had a $2 million a year budget. We would tear down the race engine after every race, inspect and measure everything, and clean and put it all back together if it was within spec. We would reuses everything, including the rings, seals and gaskets, if they were undamaged. You do not do harm to the bearings by bolting them up, and than unbolting them. They should go right back into their proper shape, in fact we would measure bearing clearance by clamping them in the bearing cap without installing them and measuring the size, out of round, and taper of the bearing in their location in the connecting rod and in the block. If all good, they came out and the same ones went back in with the crank in place.

This team was running a Nissan 300ZX (back when Nissan had a racing program), that put out about 900 hp out of a 3 liter engine, the car was undefeated and the team has the most wins in the history of the International Motor Sport Association. I designed the head, the throttle system and much of the cooling system that went into that car, and I also assisted in the build-up of the engines.

The only thing that you can not reuse are the terrible "yield to torque" bolts used on modern production car engines for the head and bearing caps. If the bolts are hard steel, these too can be reused they have not been yielded.

Many mechanics will replace perfectly good parts to either reduce his liability, or to sell things you do not need. Trust me on this, I know as much about engine design and performance as much as anyone in the country. I was even taught in auto shop class way back in high school to always replace gaskets and seals, etc. and I was surprised and shocked when I found a professional team reusing all of the parts on the engine.

 

those pics looks like the engine was full of water. Was the engine exposed to the weather? You have a lot of cleaning to do, but my previous recommendations still stand. If it was my engine I would hone the cylinders to clean them up, and than have a machine shop check the bore dia and compare it to the piston dia (take the pistons with you). If they are within specs just replace the rings, if not than have them order new pistons and have them overbored (they need the pistons before they do the overbore to verify dia.)

You do not really have to remove the crank from the engine to hone it, but you need to protect the crank from the honing with shop towels wrapped around it. And after honing you need to clean out the bores with soap and water, and clean solvent (keep wiping them out with white paper towels, when they come out clean white you are done). than clean off the crank and the crankcase really good.

You will have to clean off the head gasket and get the face of the heads fully clean before they can check it for being flat. I use a large granite block with 400 grit sand paper (wet and dry) and get the surface smooth and clean. This will give the head a better sealing surface than they can do in the machine shop.

 

Looks like you have nothing to lose.... if I were you, I'd spoon some Mystery Marvel Oil, kerosene or whatever into each cylinder, let it set for a day or two, and put a big breaker bar on it. If it comes loose I'd change the oil, fire it up and let it run for a few minutes to see if the rings seal. If they do, change the oil again and go on with your life. If they don't, start deciding whether to hone and/or rebuild, or buy a used/rebuilt engine. You can weigh your ambition and sweat equity against the dollars involved....

I bought an Oldsmobile station wagon with a hemi in it when I was roughnecking on oil rigs in Oklahoma, back when Moby Dick was a minnow and I was a young man, and it turned out to have a cracked head. Used parts for hemi's were hard to come by in that area back then, because the 'hotshot' companies who serviced the rigs favored them for their trucks. It took me six months to find a head I could afford, clear across the state into Arkansas.

After setting for six months with the head off, the left bank of the hemi was rusted solid and the engine was seized -- even though I had kept it covered.

I went after all the rust I could reach with emery cloth, and cleaned up afterwards as best I could. Then I installed the new (used) head, added kerosene to each cylinder, and let things set for a day. To break the engine loose, I wound up using a 3/4" x 6' pipe, slipped over the handle of a Craftsman 1/2" breaker bar. I stood on a sawhorse, leaned out to grab the pipe, and jumped. Then I did it again.... it took me three tries, but you have to realize I only weighed 140 lbs back then.

Then I fired up the engine, and headed down the road a mile or two. At first I was laying down a smoke cloud like a mosquito abatement truck, and was getting pretty discouraged. So I turned it around and headed home -- and about halfway back, the smoke cloud suddenly stopped as the rings freed themselves and started doing their job. I drove the station wagon for another year with no problems, then sold it to someone who wanted the engine.

Is that the recommended procedure? Obviously not; I'm sure a few mechanics who read this will wind up with nightmares. And if you want to do things right, PAR has told you how to go about it. But if you're tight for money, and planning on dumping the engine anyway if you can't get it running, I repeat: what've you got to lose?

add: I still have that Craftsman breaker bar, over thirty years later. It's offset by about 20 degrees from bending right behind the head when I threw my weight onto the 6' cheater, but it still works fine. Since Craftsman offers a lifetime guarantee I'm sure I could get it replaced for free, but I'm kind of fond of it.

add #2: make that Marvel Mystery Oil, instead of Mystery Marvel Oil. My family has a history of dyslexia, and as I've gotten older I sometimes switch the order of words or numbers. At work I manually record pressure, temperature and flow reads every hour, as a legal record to back up the computer reads. Lately when I'm tired I've caught myself reading numbers properly and reversing them anyway, as though my hand with a pen in it has a life of its own.

 

we've all done one of those
cheers

 

that view could well say there was an issue with the 2 right hand cylinders the last time it ran

 

Ergo:

Ski boat,3 weekends a year,on a lake with the guys= a quick hone and bead blast.

On a river or ocean with the family=new engine.