Broke College Student Trying to build a Hard Top for an Express: Pleeeease Help me...

Hello,

I am a college student with a sort of a hand me down Sea Ray that I have bartered with a local boat mechanic. I did some computer work for him and in exchange he gave me a 1980 sea ray 260 express (minus the engine). I installed a new engine and put new gear casing on the gen.1 mercruiser out drive and got the boat running. However, I would like to convert this vessel more suitable to offshore fishing.

I have been monitoring this forum for some time now and have gathered some great information and insight. I've looked all over and can not find any information on building a hard top for my 26' express I have been working on. I know just enough to be dangerous when it comes to building something for my boat. Here is a photo of the hard top I would like to build:

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/2728/sort/1/cat/2/page/1

I would really like to convert this in to something resembling a pilothouse with a fully enclosed helm area with pop-out front windows on some of the cool lobster boats...but I know that might be asking for a little too much. I have a limited budget and anyone can give me some insight(s) on how I might go about doing this, I would be greatful. Thanks in advance.

Jay

 

Jay,

Take a piece of one inch foam cut slightly oversize, lay it flat and laminate one side, then fair and paint it, that becomes the bottom side. Flip it over, hold it bent in the right shape and laminate the other side, now you have a sandwich panel that will retain its shape. Cut back the foam along the edges and backfill with putty, rout out a nice radius on the edge, then fair and paint the edge and the rest of the top.

You might be able to get away with using styrofoam, but then you have to use epoxy resin.

Yoke.

 

some newbie questions

Dear Yoke,

Thanks for replying. I have some questions on your instructions:

Laminate: what do I use to do this?
"fair it": how do I fair?

How can I make bends around the outer edges, do I first make a sort of a mold to do this? also, wher can I get foam that is 8' x 5'? will this sandwiching process make the top rigid enough where it won't break? Thanks in advance.

Jay

 

Jay,

First of all, you need to peruse whatever you can find on laminating. Very briefly, it means to soak a fabric (glass, in this case) with epoxy resin (glue) and letting it harden. Putting glass skins on either side of a sheet of foam makes a sandwich panel where the foam is analogus to the shear web in an I beam. For making a panel with turned-down edges, it is probably better to make a temporary male mold.

Yoke.

 

ahhh.. I kinda figured that, but wanted to be sure with some of the trade terms. It wasn't something I could easily look up (fairing it is sanding the laminated surface?). I think I get the general Idea now. I was originally thinking it was to be done with a marine plywood, but I thought that it was gonna be way too heavy. Once again, thanks Yoke. You are the only person nice enough to take time in answering my newbie questions.

Jay
P.S. If you ever need computer questions answered, I would be thrilled (UCLA CS Major).

 

Alternate Method

One other way is to use cedar strips and then laminate both sides with fiberglass and epoxy. It is the same method that is used to build cedar strip canoes. It would be a bit stronger (not too much - the difference is just a wood core instead of a foam core). The methods described above would give you the best result, but be careful about how to attach it to the boat.

If you drill through the "sandwich", you need to be sure and seal up the hole very well. Water in the foam will later expand and contract and crack the fiberglass. When I make wood panels, I typically drill all the connecting holes and then paint on more epoxy. I use West System, but there are other good ones. West with the little plastic pumps that screw onto the cans is pretty much idiot proof.

stephan@bradleyboatworks.com if you have any questions.

Stephan

 

Jay, For making the turned-down edges, perhaps make some strips the same way as the top, foam with glass on one side, fit them as flanges and glass them onto the top.

Fairing- you mix the resin with lightweight powder (Q-cel, for example) till you have a putty, (home-made bondo, essentially) apply, sand etc.

Yoke.




jay,

 

Thanks guys for your insights. I have been trying to research a way to do this as the bimini top(bought used and fitted on my boat) blew apart in the wind yesterday at catalina island--about 30 miles from where I live. There was a Gail force wind warning for farther offcoast but with an overall slow fishing season in So. Cal and Yellowtail started showing the last few days, we had decided to go. Kinda scary on a 26 footer with almost 8' water with heavy wind all morning. Well. the wind really took a toll on it as piece of the bimini frame broke. Now I really have to get going with this project.

Can I do this with a thin (.25") plywood and dressing it with fiberglass or will that be too heavy? I am trying to find the most economical and idiot proof way to do this.. I am also not planning on putting many heavy things on it--possibly a radar and a spotlight later when I have some money together. Working with foam and cedar strips sounds pretty advance for a beginner or is it? Do you know of a website or a good book to get me started with this? Thanks in advance.

Jay

 

Searaytuna

There are several boat demolish places on Anaheim St. One is 2523 E. Anaheim St., next to a truck/auto tire place; they're open on Saturday and during the week. Lots of good "stuff" to look at. Try Jack @ ph. #562-432-8767, cell # 562-307-4156. Once you're there he can tell you of the other places to look around in; you may find other items you need plus a top.

There's another place near the 710 / Anaheim St. but its hard to find. Try Wayne @ cell # 310-339-2732 for direction and partial listing of used equipment.

Try Kelly Marine, 22nd & ?? just before the Cabrillo Marina turn off. Sean @ 310-548-5348 can give you a rundown of "stuff".

Also, Minney's used parts @ ph. # 949-548-4192.

New subject, from the picture of your boat it looks like you're launching form 36th St. Cabrillo ramp in Pedro. There's no wash down water available there unless they just installed it recently. You need to flush out your engine and out-drive quickly as to prevent premature aging and the need to replace manifolds, etc. (costly). I had a freshwater cooling system installed on my engine, works great.

I have a 248 Wellcraft, I'm investigating putting a small pilothouse, radar arch or canvass top etc. on it. I lost my top while trailing.

Good luck.

 

It is cabrillo launch ramp. I use it before 5 am or after 6pm and since there is noone there to monitor it, I launch fro free No one there to write tickets either.. You are right about no wash down facility as well.. Luckily, when I did the engine work, it is with a FWC package.

It might be a lofty goal, but I really would like to learn how to build composites as I think its pretty cool to be able to design what you want and be able to make it. SO I've been looking into making composites and with a simple structure, it seems do-able. Of course, once I get started, it may prove to be otherwise..
I too want to make a little pilothouse eventually, but that would come after I get a better taste of making the top which I think should be a bit easier.

Thanks for the info. Ed Kichi.

 

top

Iam also trying to put a top on my 26'bayboat....just to HOT out there....Thinking about fiber glass myself.....I do have a computer queston....How do I put all my e-mail on a cd/dvd? I want to start saveing them. I have out look/explorer. I do have have a dvd/cd burner on my Sony laptop pcg-grx670.....thanks...e-mail lecia@gvtc.com

 

Dallas,

the easiest way to backup your email in bulk is by opening your outlook and going to your inbox then right click on it, choose properties. When you choose properties, there will be a folder path to where your dbx files(your email files are located) copy that path to your windows explorer/internet explorer screen then just copy & paste your inbox files.

Although there are many different ways to bck files, this is pretty much the easiest way to do it in bulk. Once you saved all of the .dbx files to local drive, you just burn it in a CD as you would with any other files.

Jay

 

hard top build experience

Hello broke college student.

I took on and completed a very similar task that you are pursuing. Made a stationary hardtop for my 23 ft Wellcraft Sportsman. Very pleased with the results but was a bear of a project - took me about 2 years of on and off again effort. Not sure I would do it again and at times gave thoughts to getting the saw out to cut it up.

First I went to the local VoTech to learn how to weld. Something I had been wanting to do anyway. After going thru the manadatory stick / mild steel indoctrinatioin and finally several classes later I was able to pick up a tig torch and try my hand at stainless steel and aluminum. A few months later after sucking up to the instructor a bit, I was able to start my Aluminum uprights for the hardtop project.

Since I wasn't able to bring the boat into the shop, my design called for stout supports bolted to the cabin tops and the hardtop was to be bolted to that.
Made the supports out of aluminum with my tig skills and also using the $8,000 mig pulse machine at the shop. Wonderful machine.

Supports completed, I then proceded to make the top. I made a 4' x 8' formica covered mold board. Doing it again, I would have made the mold board larger. I had to make the top in a few pieces that were later joined. I waxed the formica, layer of expoxy, and then epoxy and glass and then 1/2' plascore poly honeycomb core. Lots of concrete blocks and weight to try and get an even bond with the laminate skin and the core. Vacuum bagging would have been better, but have yet to get to that stage in my crafting. When all cured, I popped the piece off the board and that gave me a nice smooth surface on one side of the panel -- my top of the hardtop.

I bolted the aluminum supports to the cabin top and made the longitudtional supports with more cored panels. It was looking kinda rough at this stage. The longitudtional supports were a little whacky and not symetrical. I proceeded.

From a previously layed up cored panel - skins on both sides, I cut bows that matched the curvature of the cabin top. On top of these glued previously laminated skins about 2" wide.

Into notches in the longituditinal supports, I postioned the bows. Lathered up the bows with expoxy and laid my top down on them. Had to figure out as I went how best to get the best contact between the bows and the bendy panel, but with some strings and weights and clips ended up with a good glue joint. After it all cured, I took it off and laid it upside down in a cradle and proceeded to laminate the underside of the top --- the exposed poly honeycomb. Trimmed the longituditinals into prettier shape. Got it all laminated, then lots of sanding and fairing - but no sanding on my nice smooth surface that came from the mold board.
Shewin Williams polyurethane paint system (Polane) and the final result is pretty good. I think it looks professionally custom made but I'm probably a little prejudice.

Hired a canvas guy to do the strataglass enclosure.

It was a hell of a learning experience. Built it in an open carport with dust and leaves blowing in. My next project is enclosing the carport to make a shop. Now that will be a big project too. If I can just get my design and the engineer and the county permit office to all agree, then I'll get started.

James

 

First, I thank all of the craftsman for their advice, comments and wisdom. In addition to some of the replies on the board, I have received many insights via private email and has been very helpful in getting me better acquinted with composite fabricating. I realize this is not going to be an easy task, and so far in my 27 years of life, I pretty much take the hard-way of learning things--many screw-ups in between.. but once I learn and make mistakes from something, it allows me to never forget..

With that said, since my original posting of this topic few weeks back, I feel I have really come along. Read/skimmed throuch few books as well as couple of dozens of related sites. Some site were really cool and was very helpful to a newbie like myself
http://foxxaero.homestead.com/Radar1.html
which gave be a pictorial illustration to give me better understanding.

Boating has been a big part of my life: started as a pinhead at 14, deckhand at 15 and a second ticket (M100 tons) at 18 on local sportfishing fleet in the LA area. I know I am not goning to be a master composite craftsman any time soon. But I think I can take on the challenge of at least making a composite top that looks halfway decent without trying to reinvent the wheel. As far as welding the frame, I will probably have a friend(a pro) do that for me. ONce I have some hands-on experience, I am hoping to make some other cool things with composites like making a pilothouse---may be years later but will ultimately like to tackle the challenge one day. I have lots of time to live still

If there is any advice and insights out there, please allow me to pick your knowledge as I too will one day share it with someone like myself--it will kinda be like teaching a kid how to fish, they don't forget it. Thank you in advance.

A Broke college student.

 

Searaytuna, If you have the abilities to build a hard top then you have the abilities to build a pilothouse. For the most part, you will only have to deal with the sides and top. The only difficulty lies in determining the tumblehome (angle rise up the sides...) and the camber that the top deck will have. Your first task will be to take accurate measurements of the area to be altered and then determine the shape that you desire. Whether your female mold is a simple cambered female mold such as that of a hardtop, or a full sized pilot house,it still comes down to preparation, time and your abilities in glassing. For the most part,what separates a journeyman shipwright and a neophyte is experience and the empirical knowledge to perform the task. For a boat your size, you might as well go the whole way because the costs in terms of materials will not be that much greater. Employ some decent lumber for framing and some sheets of 1/2 and 1/4 inch MDF (medium density fibreboard) for your mold. You will be able to create enough of a camber for the top with MDF. Just remember that you must include a flange for the side deck tie in. Of course this will be possible because the mold will be built upside down. As long as you don't create any reversed compound curves in your mold you will be able to pop it off in one piece. If it is necessary to have an area that does have a compound curve, then make sure that the part of the mold in that area of the mold can be torn apart prior to releasing the part. The more research that you do will pay off once you are ready to build your mold. Do not be afraid of the task ahead. A well planned project with a good set of plans will always result in a well built project.