A 33ft Sumner ?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by SAE140, Sep 24, 2006.

  1. SAE140

    SAE140 Guest

    I don't know if anyone else here has a design in their heads which never goes away - every few years or so you factor in a new idea, but it still isn't quite right - so the design gets shelved away again for a couple more years ...

    This has been the case with me ever since I first saw the lines of Blondie Hasler's experimental boat 'Sumner'. I can't say why this should be - it's one hell of an ugly duckling, and at 46 feet LOA (32.5ft LWL) and a beam of just 6.75ft, exactly what would I use the boat for ??

    My current 'ideal concept boat' should be capable of travelling through the British and French canal systems, yet still be capable of a fair sailing performance offshore. In a perfect world it would also be road-trailerable, capable of being towed by an average car.
    The only options I'm aware of to fit this brief would be one of the myriad number of 21ft(ish) UK twin keelers (of which I have a Kingfisher and a couple of Corribees) - but life aboard these craft is cramped to say the least. The Manitee 'Alert', and Bolger's sailing narrowboat design (the name of which escapes me) would be better craft for living aboard, but neither of these would be road-trailerable - and they're probably not great sailers.

    The Sumner design, as is, falls over both on it's length, it's 4ft draft, and it's displacement - which I'm guestimating (from Hul's figures) as being in the order of 4 tons.

    This year's Southampton Boat Show saw a brilliant keel design by http://www.mitchellyachts.co.uk and I'm attaching a couple of pics of their invention. Immediately I saw this invention my mind vectored back to Sumner's twin ballasted keels.

    Now - if the Sumner design is scaled down to 33ft LOA, the displacement is reduced to something around 1.5 tons - which then becomes very trailerable - and with parallelogram torpedo keels *pulled up flush with the hull*, a draft of only 5 or 6 inches results. Very beachable - with a kick-up/lifting rudder of course.

    I'm still in the process of fine-tuning the Huls offsets to get a perfect match with the published lines (the only info I have), but I'll post the figures (prismatics etc) if anyone's interested.

    A reduction of the beam to only 5ft doesn't appeal much, but then again - life ain't perfect.

    As with a previous post, if anyone sees any glaring 'whoopsees' or wants to comment re: the feasibility and/or the likely sailing performance - comments would be most appreciated.

    'best

    Colin
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Colin,

    Cool idea, but some windows might be really nice!

    The drag from that stub keel will be horrendous, what's it for??? (That's a rhetorical question implying you might want to rethink your keel.)

    A vertical retracting board with ballast bulb is simple and strong...



    Tad
     
  3. SAE140

    SAE140 Guest

    Hi Tad

    ahh - windows/lights ... I know these are conventional fittings, and we expect to see 'em on boats - but why have 'em ? They have a tendency to leak, they're useless to look out from, and large ones are vulnerable from airborn green water. Personally, I favour raised hatches (Griffith's hatches) using thick perspex and placed on the centreline to get the light in. But I do agree that windows *look* the part.

    I fully agree with you about the stub keel - my preference would be to pull the ballast torpedo up into a recess in the hull, giving absolute minimum draft for beaching. Fit shallow chine runners if directional stability is still needed.

    Ballasted dagger-board ? Well, I've no problem with dagger-boards, providing they incorporate a weak spot so that they will break off during a hard grounding, and thus preserve the integrity of the hull. So for me a ballasted dagger-board would never be an option - thinks - unless the board could be arranged on the *outside* of the hull, leeboard-style, to pivot-breakaway backwards and slightly outwards during a hard grounding. That might be possible. Certainly an option worth considering, although there'd be a need to prevent the board from breaking away under normal heeling stresses - which could prove embarrassing.

    I guess I'm just smitten by the idea of putting a very heavy lump of ballast (I'd use a s/s tube filled with lead to eliminate electrolysis) on the end of 2 s/s struts - putting the weight in exactly the right place, and using fiendishly strong stuff to fabricate with. 6" draft or a 4-5ft draft - I reckon the idea could be a winner.

    Much appreciate your post.

    Colin
     
  4. PATRICE V
    Joined: Nov 2012
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    PATRICE V Junior Member

    Hi Colin (SAE140)
    I read your 09-24-2006 post today ! I know where Blondie Hassler's experimental boat SUMNER is now on Nov 2012. I know who is the actual owner. I know its previous owner, who sailed with it. I am in contact with him. Ask me if it may help you.
    Patrice
     
  5. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    The Tilikum is an example of a boat of similar dimension without outside ballast that cruised the world.
     
  6. Steelfloats
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    Steelfloats Junior Member

    I'm bumping this thread since I've always been interested in the design. I'd like to hear how she sails if you are still around Patrice.Thanks.
     
  7. PATRICE V
    Joined: Nov 2012
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    PATRICE V Junior Member

    Sumner, news and how did she sailed ?

    Sumner sunk at the beginning of 2013. She is still under water in the harbour.
    BUT !
    The local newspaper wrote an article, and some people are trying to save it as Blondie Hassler is an hero here in Bordeaux.
    A new "Ocean Museum and Boats Museum" is being projected and it has been said that Sumner will be inside.
    Your question (sorry I just read it yesterday ! )
    I'd like to hear how she sails
    Answer: I will ask the previous owner, who sailed from France to the Açores and back with her
     
  8. PATRICE V
    Joined: Nov 2012
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    PATRICE V Junior Member

    I got an answer ! The previous owner who sailed with it says: originally, this prototype was built to race in duo around England. Despite having two keels, its original Bermuda rig with guying was more efficient facing the wind than when subsequently equipped with a junk sail and a large mast without guys, installed at the bottom and at roof level. The structure had been considerably reinforced for this effect.
    Speed obtained was usually 6 to 8 knots and up to 14 when surfing a wave in the Solent (Isle of Wight).
    The Junk rig was nice and comfortable, especially in bad weather.
     
  9. CelineJ
    Joined: Dec 2013
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    CelineJ New Member

    Article Sumner

    Bonjour Patrice, je suis à la recherche d'informations et surtout de photos sur le Sumner. J'habite à Bordeaux (sur un voilier) en face de l'ancien voilier de Blondie Hasler. Je prépare un article sur ce voilier pour la revue Chasse-Marée et malheureusement les informations sont très rares. Une association présente sur le port de Bordeaux projette de renflouer et de restaurer le Sumner. Merci beaucoup!
     
  10. CelineJ
    Joined: Dec 2013
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    CelineJ New Member

    Sumner Bordeaux

    Hello again, I write in English this time because problem translation on this site!
    Hello Patrice, I am looking for information and photos on Sumner. I live in Bordeaux (on a sailboat) in front of the sailboat Blondie Hasler. I prepare an article on this ship for the magazine Chasse-Marée but unfortunately the information is very rare. There is an association of the Port of Bordeaux who would like to Restore and replenish Sumner. Thank you very much!
     
  11. PATRICE V
    Joined: Nov 2012
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    PATRICE V Junior Member

    information and photos on Sumner

    Hi CelineJ
    I am living 25 km North from you. Good idea and good project ! I am very disappointed Sumner is always under the water !. I tried, a few years ago, to find photos and informations on Internet. They are few. I catched and kept them on one of my computers. Due to a personal accident I am not able to watch files which are on it. As soon as I can do that: I will do ! Next month ! My contact, Mr Brecy, Sumner's previous owner, may have more informations and photos. I hope Sumner is not too damaged due to his stay under the water ! Could he be installed in the future "Musée de la Mer et de la Marine" which will be build by Norbert Fradin in 2015 ? Is this association of the Port of Bordeaux authorised by the present owner to restore it ? Thanks
     
  12. frank smith
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    frank smith Senior Member

    Sae140, why the 5' beam? shrinking Sumner to 33 feet really does not work well i think the beam could be kept as is and have the stability needed, draft and displacement would be higher. but I think the resulting boat would be better. Check the Bolger Ostar sharpie at 29' .
     
  13. Tcubed
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    Tcubed Boat Designer

    Surtout ne pas négliger de nous maintenir au courant de tout événement concernant le fameux Sumner!
    Et de poster quel que soit images ..

    Ce bateaux m'as toujours fasciné , malgré sa laideur
     
  14. PATRICE V
    Joined: Nov 2012
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    PATRICE V Junior Member

    voilà ce qu'on peut voir de Sumner en juillet 2014

    son mat
     

    Attached Files:


  15. PATRICE V
    Joined: Nov 2012
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    PATRICE V Junior Member

    voilà ce qu'on pouvait voir avant son naufrage

    extrait d'une photo de la Base Sous-Marine, trouvée sur le Web et zoomée
     

    Attached Files:

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