TP52s

meh, they're having fun with their libel and slander.... i'm content to just sit back and watch.

btw, how the hell is it that the mac26 has about an order of magnitude more text space on this forum than just about any other single design?

 

You mean none of this is true?!?! Say it ain't so!

 

I know its hard to believe. There isn't a tooth fairy either. Sorry man, hate to break it to you.

 

Oh you are too funny. Since you were not there, I will share with you what I said which was "Carl Buchan once told me to never sail a boat in which you are taller than the mast." I try to stick with that rule unless I am sailing an RC boat, though I have sailed mini 12's several times, once in a pool even. I was indeed refering to the potter (as well as the optimist dingy) when I made that remark during the learn to sail course that I was asked to instruct, but you have to keep in mind that I am a big guy, so if I'm taller than the rig, it's possible the boat won't float with me in it. In speaking with the owner of the potter, he did not seem offended but rather chuckled and laughed in jest, but perhaps I was mistaken. If he was offended.......I wish he would have mentioned it to me. To say that I am "training new sailors to hate westwight potters" is rediculous, but I have heard much blasphemy from you, so I don't expect too much.

Interesting take on the windward leeward course changes by the way. We don't have W/L's all year round, just for the bouy racing. We have many distance races in the fall/winter/spring that aren't perfectly square. It's really nice to see our local fleet sailing similar courses to what the rest of the world (in my experience) is sailing on for bouy racing. Also to note that the W/L's can have a gybe mark too. When a course is square, the options are much wider. Further, we only have a few planing hull Keelboats in Olympia, which do quite well in their classes, so I'm not sure why the future of yacht design is in jeopordy in Oly. Last time I checked, your "futuristic" boat was either fouling several of the race participants or dropping out of the races you entered, though I applaud you for giving it a go and getting out there on the water.

Some history for you, my local sailing mentors as I was growing up (people like Bill Maclean, Gene Sibold, and Joe Dubey who are no longer with us) would always be "encouraging" (more like telling them what to do) the race committee to set proper windward leeward courses rather than these miniature distance races we get when no body cares about the course. They saw that knowing how to sail a good windward leg would benefit our locals when they traveled to out of town regattas where another real course was set. Those who mastered the basic windward leeward philosophy would do well at most any point of sail regardless of boat type. There was even a mark boat named "Snoopy" that was bought by the club to fascilitate better courses with inflatable marks because as you may not be aware of, we use a mixture of government and private marks that are perminent. These mentors of mine were so dedicated to having square windward leeward courses that they poored their time and money into that POS Snoopy. Many times not racing so that they could set a good line instead. Having sailed with Bill Maclean for quite awhile, I remember several races where we were RC intead of racing (much like a modern day local heroe of mine Bill Brosious, whom by the way sets windward leewards as a standard) So perhaps you may want to re-evaluate your plight agains W/L's as there is much to be learned from them. If it was all about going as fast as possible regardless of marks, we'd be doing NASCAR, which is quite possibly the worst excuse for a sport IMHO.


Frankie old chap, you seem to have a bone to pick with me and I'm not sure why. You have never met me formally, you get your info here-say, you have grand dillusions of who I am, what I stand for, and what my goals are. What is it that you want from me since... you know.... "it's always been about (me)"? I'll be at the meeting tomorrow night, so I'll have a chance to let you know who I am...face to face. I'm looking forward to the occasion.


Toodles

 

Don't forget this thread is really about the malicious efforts of Teeters to ram the dangerous TP52 down the throats of the innocent, and gullible, sailing public. (Re-read the first page if you want a good laugh.) Important topics like that sure do generate some heated discussion.

 

So what was the result of the Tuesday SSSS meeting?

 

Relative to what? To Frank? He was there. He didn't say a word when one of his pet topics came up. Typical Frank, lots of noise, damned little substance.

 

I was there. Had a nice long conversation with a guy who knows everything about me yet had never spoken to me. I rather enjoyed filling in the gaps so to speak...and to be honest...can only hope that his enthusiasm for the sport will be harnessed for good....but if history repeats itself........?

 

Maine USA2


you know, this whole thing seems a bit screwy as in reality someone would have sued someone by now rather than continuing to slug it out on the Internet...

Maine is such a great sailing state and yet those from it still suffer from the east-is-least for sailors syndrome. I know a woman from Maine. She was the daughter of sailor and can name every sail on a square rigger. She has been all over the world with her father, a US Navy man, and has spent a lifetime looking for a sailboat designed on the east coast that she could call her own. She may have found it. We take a look today at the Lake Union Boat Show.

The problem with the east coast is reflected by the lets sue someone now mentality. It has never been that way on the west is best coast. Easterners who don't get this just do not stay long in my neighborhood. They buy their homes on my block, start moving the property lines so they can play that game eventually in court, but are gone in less than two years because that way of thinking just does not sit well with those who employ them and welcome them into their schools, churches and clubs.

We do not require legal representation to purchase real estate on the west coast as is required on the east. This may appear to be a subtile difference but it defines the better way of life you find here. Perhaps it also explains why boats designed and built on the west coast are superior. Boats designed by courts of law are rairly worthy. See this young designers and move west where the action is.

Excellent cruising grounds in Maine. Hope to visit. I bet you will find Mac26x sailboats there

 

Relative to what? To Frank? He was there. He didn't say a word when one of his pet topics came up. Typical Frank, lots of noise, damned little substance.

Did I miss something? Dan Decker did mention a MacGregor as being a good boat to sell. I was one of the ones booing on that and at the break did have a chat with him and the MacGregor classic owner who is selling. She like me also viewed his comment as inappropriate but possibly a joke. It was all smoothed over at the break and she joined the club. She hopes to crew but hasn't been sailing in three years. It was a well run meeting I thought.

We had the largest number of prospects for club membership since Dan Decker and I joined the club. I like to think my candid discussion of pet topics had something to do with that. In fact I know it did because I was told so.

We are different at SSSS. The Members are expected to speak with both authority and conviction. This ain't your father's big boat sailing club. I was especially happy to see the PHRF representatives take a big back seat and remain for the most part quiet.

You have to realize that the best racing sailors in the club are former or current MacGregor Yacht, Hunter, and Catalina owners. When you see that you start to see the truth, just as many Republicans are seeing their way to changing parties. It is the end of the Republicans just as it is the end of the big boats and for the same reason. That way of thinking just doesn't work in the Flat World of the Internet where what you know, or can know by Google, is more important than who you know.

Was there any discussion of IRC? I didn't see many pick up the IRC Handbooks before I had to leave. I didn't have to chat about the race starts and the extra and stupid gun shot. John put that topic into the fish bowl. The way to clear the race course prior to the race start is so clearly by VHF radio. Do any clubs but SSSS fail to use VHF radio for that purpose? Research on broadcasting starts continues. WE WANT SUBSTANCE. I suppose radio technology is as much a part of boat design as getting your ducks in a row and of course it was central to the TP52s in the Transpac this year. Ah Curruba

 

Is that why all nearly all the 12 meters were designed and built on the East coast?

 

If Frank speaks with the authority of SSSS, then we can apparently assume that knowledge of the relevant facts is not expected.

 

Nyah. He doesn't. He was booted off the board in fact.

Also, he doesn't say anything at meetings. Just sits by himself for the most part.

 

Maine USA2

Is that why all nearly all the 12 meters were designed and built on the East coast?

Interesting notion. The truth is that the 12 meter vessels were popular in England and Europe prior to the rekindling of the Americas Cup which had not been run for some time owing to World Wars. This is an excellent example of design by courts of law and the mentality that has existed on the east is least for sailors coast for some time. The America's Cup could not be run inexpensively with the J Boats and it took considerable court effort to change the rules so that the 12 meters could be used benefiting one famous US designer greatly because he was the only one experienced in the design. The 12 meter period of the Americas Cup is so much about who the designer knew rather than what he knew. It is not the kind of thing that will ever happen again owing to Internet.

Before you tune me off as a lunatic unworthy of further attention know that I have something to say about Taylor's Sabre 386 which was the best boat at today's boat show on lake union. She is a Maine lady. Lets first give you some background related to the TP52s - which the thread is really about. It will be review for those who have been following my 15 minutes of fame turned into 15 months of fame and now infamy for all of time. Aint life grand :?:

The Dorade, a 52 foot yawl designed by Olin Stephens, and the Santa Cruise 70 are two of only 4 vessels to be first to finish, first in class and first overall in the Transpac, a race to Hawaii that has been run regularly since 1906. Study of these two vessels and the 12 meter boats is important in determining the future of yacht design.

Dorade
The Dorade win in 1936 made Olin and Rod Stephens unusual designs legendary world wide.

Olin in February of 1988 confided in an oral history at Mystic Seaport that Ken Davidson was his mentor in applying science to sailboat design. Davidson was a physics or math professor in 1931 when young Olin first met him. Davidson had taken training in the Navy as well as graduating from Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The Stephens had built Gimcrack S & S (Gimcrack Sparkman and Sparkman) in hopes of getting a one-design class started. Davidson built a model for this vessel and tank tested it, the result being an education for young Olin and also the Gimcrack Coefficients which were applied to the driving and heeling forces of sails and rigs. Olin states about Davidson,

"I would say the only bad advice he ever gave me was this: I said, 'I don't worry much about the naval architecture, I'm not going to school as a naval architect, but I wish I knew more about calculus.' He said. 'Oh, you can always get someone to do that for you." (laughter) Since I've gotten involved with the computer, I wish I could do more of it myself." Olin Stephens also states "I often kick myself, because with the knowledge that Ken had and a lot of which he passed along to me, I think we could have advanced a lot faster then we had."

What are we to conclude. Is it possible that crew competency is more important than design compentency. Can I say that astroturfing (the creation of what looks like grass roots enthusiam for a design) has a long history in sailboat design. Did not most racing enthusiests think the TP52s hot when they clearly are not. Did not most racing enthusiests think the Mac26x boats steaming piles of crap prior to learning that they are the most popular sail boat design of all time. 5000 hulls in 7 years. There will never be that kind of production in a pocket cruiser/ racer again. That design represents truth. True grass roots support.

 

Lol

Did not most racing enthusiests think the TP52s hot when they clearly are not. Did not most racing enthusiests think the Mac26x boats steaming piles of crap prior to learning that they are the most popular sail boat design of all time. 5000 hulls in 7 years. There will never be that kind of production in a pocket cruiser/ racer again. That design represents truth. True grass roots support.

LOL

This was an even better joke than your views on keels!!