Should Professionals Design Boats

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Submarine Tom, Sep 10, 2012.

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  1. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    I think you’ve been smoking/drinking your stuff again. No where does it make any mention of professional v amateur distinct in my post that you elude to. The one “professional” aspect noted relates to builders being paid to make such a boat compared to building it with one’s own bare hands; thus relating to the difference in cost. Please stick to the facts not conjecture and subversion as facts.

    Only a contradiction to you, as you failed to comprehend the post.

    So again, I ask you to define “enlighten minds” and “the conservative box”, rather than verbose woolly flip-flopping as your usual MO.
     
  2. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Upchurchmr, they would have been practical, very experienced sailors with keen observation and unclogged minds. For sure, their expertise would have been recognised by others (with open minds) and they would have been appreciated - and perhaps later turned "professional."
    Hobie Alter is an excellent modern example, came from surfing, beach bum, no formal marine architecture education ... yet he designed the breakthrough Hobie cat.
     
  3. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    But the racing tunnel hull was developed with extensive hydro and aerodynamic testing by a professional designer and boat builder in Italy in the 60's.
    Having borrowed the tunnel hull concept I don't think there's anything brilliantly intuitive in mounting a jet engine on a tunnel hull. Even though it was a great effort. These aren't useful tech advances, they are record breaking attempts.
     
  4. bntii
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    bntii Senior Member

    All one can say is that he had a good ideal.

    No conclusion can be drawn over how well he might have done with the benefit of formal training or that its absence was responsible for his work.
     
  5. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    I'd expect that optimal design plays a big part in your highway bridges look alike. But if you look away from standard run of the mill highway bridges there's plenty of variety. Many grand bridges are recognisable from a sketch of their structure alone. The scenery isn't required. They are all quite different even though their structures are dictated by physics.


    How many new materials, techniques applications and records has NASA produced ? How many rank amateurs does NASA have in it's professional teams? What sort of qualification do you need to work for NASA as a development engineer? The idea that non proficient amateurs have any significant input into modern tech advances is simply erroneous. Anyone imagining that engineers engage in group-think, and end up in a "box" with clogged minds, has never ever tried to present a design to a peer review panel of professional engineers. Nor have they ever worked in a "think tank" exercise to consider alternatives. That's where tech advances tend to originate.

    I asked before for one example over the last 20 years of any significant acknowledged amateur technical advance.
    Can anyone name anything significant? Yet you could read endlessly of the advances from highly educated professionals and teams.
     
  6. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    I thought you liked submarines?

    Seriously though, those great liners were incredible design achievements created without the aid of CAD software and without benefit of modern materials, construction methods and material science. The Titanic stayed afloat for a long time after being ripped up: I wonder how many modern ships could take that kind of punishment without heading for the bottom in minutes. Show some respect!
     
  7. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    I do know of a number of significant contributions by "amateurs", remarkable individuals that had no formal education, but were self educated. There is no reason that a brilliant person could not self educate on certain technical subjects or areas of expertise, I have seen it. They are just as smart and capable as the "professionals" they just did not have the formal education, licenses, etc. These were not crank inventors, but very capable individuals with the motivation and discipline to self educate. This is rather rare, but it does happen.
     
  8. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Peel back the layers of time and Titanic still is the pinicle of design and engineering achievement. As was almost anything in the North of England in those days from Birmingham to Glasgow. The biggest ships the fastest, biggest bridges the biggest and the best all made in the North of England.

    The smallest back yard shop in India to Texas will have a machine or lathe saying John and son England.

    I see it the complete opposite as not proof of professional failure but the failure caused by amateurs such as owners and accountants under economic restraints interfering in something they knew nothing of.


    That was the lesson time revealed.
     
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  9. Leo Lazauskas
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    Leo Lazauskas Senior Member

    A good case in point is the architect Mies van der Rohe. Would anyone seriously label him as an amateur?
     
  10. Tackwise
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    Tackwise Member

    This discussion is heading into the area: either your for us or your against us..... :rolleyes:

    In my opinion:
    Some amateurs are innovative, a lot of amateurs are not innovative
    Some professionals are innovative, a lot of professionals are not innovative

    Being either an amateur or professional does not make you innovative. Being innovative is a mindset, and a lot of hard work! Hard work is the part that a lot of amateurs and professionals miss :p
     
  11. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    We always need to take on board the thoery that some are and some are not- this applies to everything and anything.........

    So that would make the discussion complete then! Does it not?

    But I agree that it is not the sort of question that will ultimately have a definitive answer
     
  12. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "I asked before for one example over the last 20 years of any significant acknowledged amateur technical advance."

    The modern cooling system that has a puke tank and sucks back the water, to maintain an air free coolant was an amateur concept.

    This allows the radiator to be about 25% smaller , saving the car/truck.power plant builders considerable ca$h.

    No as expected , no Mfg ever paid him a dime!
     
  13. bntii
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    bntii Senior Member

    Well put
     
  14. bntii
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    bntii Senior Member

    I STILL don't understand the division argued in this thread.

    -Boat designers should design boats-

    Drive, aptitude, training, experience and exposure to precedent will all contribute to how accomplished a given person may become.

    It should be obvious to anyone that a individual might become accomplished in some part of the field outside of formal education. I might also be obvious that a person might become accomplished through long working experience.

    What might not be so obvious is that a practitioner who both lacks training and has no exposure to the actual work of designing and building vessels will face a ever increasing gulf separating himself from those who have these advantages.

    The 'amateur' has limits imposed on his accomplishments. Remove these and all are subject to a glass ceiling created only by their innate drive, ability and the presumed need for what they might create.
     

  15. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    As an amateur myself, I think the trick is for the amateur to know his limits and not step beyond them. Of course those limits can be pushed outward through educating oneself.
     
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