why no solder???

Discussion in 'Electrical Systems' started by terabika, Aug 27, 2005.

  1. terabika
    Joined: Aug 2005
    Posts: 46
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: cocoa beach

    terabika Junior Member

    Why isnt solder more widely used for conections? Solder is inside most all apliances/electronics? Mil spec was that no solder sould be used due to vibration and the stress riser on the wire at solder junction....I think this got ingrained and is why....Not a whole lot of vibration on my sailboat! I have soldered every conection and I do NOT use tinned wire, rather, I cover wire from insulation to conector with marine goop and I have not had a failure yet! I have even run wires outside like this to try to force a failure. I use regular old speaker wire of appropriate gauge. I do not have the bucks to spend on that pricy stuff. I have lived aboard for a good number of years out at anchor. I wired my boat (31ft westerly) for about one qauter of what it would cost to do itthe "right" way. I pay attention to results, not rules!...and I have had perfect results :)
     
  2. Tim B
    Joined: Jan 2003
    Posts: 1,438
    Likes: 59, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 841
    Location: Southern England

    Tim B Senior Member

    as long as you stop water ingress into the cable it's fine, the corrosion occurs when the cable gets a nick in it somewhere.

    Generally I agree though.

    Tim B.
     
  3. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,126
    Likes: 498, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Home brewed remedies are fine, because you don't have to answer to anyone other then yourself. It's unlikely you'll bring a law suit against yourself, nor have your own insurance company insist on quality materials and effort. Though in the event of a problem, you'll likely not have a claim with the insurance company (let me guess, you don't have any) because you used a half baked concept and inferior materials.

    The moment you sell your home brew, you have two insurance companies up your butt, plus the client.

    Sure, we do all these crazy (to you at least) things because we like to do extra work, buy more expensive materials and spend more time on the effort, because we have nothing better to do and generally like to hang out at the shop working on someone else's stuff, rather then be home with the wife, getting bitched at.

    Those of us that accept a responsibility to our clients do the best work we can, within the guidelines set down by whatever governing bodies and insures we have to satisfy, which is a condition that seems to escape you for some reason.
     
  4. terabika
    Joined: Aug 2005
    Posts: 46
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: cocoa beach

    terabika Junior Member

    Wow, do I have to pay extra for the sarcasm? lol . you are correct about not answering to others and I would not do this in a production setting but, lets diferentiate between non tinned wire and soldered joints.
    Half baked?? what does that actually mean? I know it is pejoritive in nature but it has no real meaning. Inferior materials?? by what measure? My measure is results vs price! I have not had one failure. INferior by cheating the capitalist gods of their due, YES! gleefully so! lol . I will agree that the ultimate probabilty of failure is higher with my system and that people buying new things/having work done for them expect your level of insurance. But, news flash, not every one can afford your level of insurance! Am I not allowed to sail because I do not do things your way? Do you know that some people actually sail without electricity and chart plotters and radar and all that other stuff? If I cannot afford your ways, it would seem that I should come up with the best way I can within my budget. I think I did! can you do any better? I did not say what you did was "crazy" or any such thing...persecution complex? You set up a conflict which does not exist, It does not escape me and I was speaking of personal use reguarding the non tinned wire but you never did address any sound reason that terminals are not soldered (please note the heading I started).
    I would think soldered joints would decrease the probabilty of failure as they are not subseptable to corossion or mechanical failure to the same degree that a crimped joint is. Why no soldered joints?
    With your sarcasm, arrogance and persecution complex, no wonder you get bitched at by your wife ;-)
     
  5. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,126
    Likes: 498, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yacht ownership is not an endeavor for those whom are poor (your admission)

    You openly admit your methods, materials and techniques are untested (your in use testing doesn't count), of inferior quality and life span. What is your continued interest in suggesting the same for others? Should others buy into the conspiracy theories and the fear of whatever gods are up their butt at the time or just take your word for it?

    You've posted, more then once, with the intent to challenge the accepted knowledge, methods, materials and techniques of industry practices. To what end, other then a debate that can't be backed up with any documentable evidence, or reasonably sound discussion points.

    You've made outrageous comments about NA's telling you things (another post suggesting NA comments of exact CLP locations for one) none of the few dozen NA's I know, would ever tell anyone. You've repeatedly suggested alternative methods, materials and ideas, but have failed to supply a base line for comparison, let alone fair and even handed testing to prove your ideas. Concepts, ideas, methods and techniques that haven't any documentation, testing or reasonable argument, to make up the original suggestions, haven't much merit and easy fall into the half baked column. It doesn't seem to matter much that you aren't the first one to conger up these ideas, most having been tried in ideal and less then so conditions, with the result being why we've adopted most of the practices we have.

    Do you honestly think the capitalist gods would use AWG 12 gauge, fully tinned, UL, ABYC and CSA approved wire, when they could save considerably with the use of SAE 12 gauge? You can bet your shiny dollar they'd switch in a heart beat if it meant their bottom line could be increased.

    The real reason is, the wire jacket and insulation is less likely to be compromised by moisture intrusion and is impervious to the oil, salt and other conditions it may be asked to live, in a marine environment. Each strand in the wire is tin coated to further protect from corrosion and is classed as a type 3 wire meaning it has 10% more strands then type 2 which permits it to have a higher fatigue resistance (a common problem on boats) Being AWG sized rather then SAE permits 12% larger wire sizes, for more current carrying capacity.

    In regard to soldered joints, it was once common to see them, but the test of time as well as independent testing have shown much reduced likelihood of failure at the connection (from several possible sources) if the connection is crimped and the wire tinned. This not only covers the stress riser issue you posted, in answer to your own question, but a number of other issues also. Since you were already aware of the answer (at least one of them) it wasn't necessary to continue listing reasons, you, again by your own admission, will cast aside as cheating the "capitalist gods of their due " when in fact you don't understand the reasons or concepts, or you do and elect to ignore them for arbitrary reasons.

    I and many like me have federal, state and local government organizations to address, plus private companies, customers and clients to please. Most are quite grateful of building codes, they insure some level of safety expectation for their money spent.

    I'm well known for some pretty odd methods of getting things done. I'm reminded of a powerplant I configured for a sailboat design of mine that was being home built. The engine was a tractor diesel, the transmission was out of a forklift and the drive was the lower unit to a 40 HP outboard. It required some adaptation pieces machined up, but other wise came in very inexpensively. It's proven to be reliable and surprisingly efficient. I have no problem with out of the box thinking, but it must be backed up with more then "I tried it on my boat and it works great" before you can ask someone else (literally and figuratively) to buy it.
     
  6. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
    Posts: 16,790
    Likes: 1,714, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 2031
    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    I read other of terabika posts and they are all about the same. Unfounded claims and some straightforward lies. For example, that the Federal and State regulations allow installations like his.
     
  7. terabika
    Joined: Aug 2005
    Posts: 46
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: cocoa beach

    terabika Junior Member

    I NEVER admitted that Yatch ownership is not for the poor! (see definition of sarcasm)You are totally incorrect!
    I do not "opennly admit blah blah blah...." And,My tests do count, as I am the only one who I have to answer to! DUH! If it works for me for several years then, news flash ....IT WORKS FOR ME!!! Why does it bother you so that I go a different route when, IT WORKS FOR ME! I post to try to rifine my practices and knowledge within my budget! Geo Metros are more dangerous then Mercedies but guess what?? Not everyone cannot afford a Benze! I guess in your scheme, they should not be allowed to drive cars?? It does not surprise that you ingore that which challenges you. You are stilll incapable of seeing that I do not seek an overthrow of the dominant paradigm, I only seek alternatives for poor people like me so that we can have boats! (with electricy). What part of this concept is so difficult for you?? I do not endanger anyone and you have no proof that I do other than those based on suppositions (incorrect) about how things are configured on my boat. Genset is not permenently mounted,or enclosed and therefore is not affoul of regs! (re gonzo) but your comprehension skills are clearly stunted as you cannot diferentiate sarcasm (how many local regs are there for boat electrical systems???) from other thoughts.
    Conspriacy theories and Gods= sarcasm...do you know what this word means? I try to inject a little good hearted humor, RELAX!
    Again, I do not " intent to challenge the accepted knowledge, methods, materials and techniques of industry practices" I merely come up with ways that I do things within my budget! I have NEVER said my ways are supperior and admitted they are in SOME ways not as good but to such a small degree as to be meaningless to me and my budget. Would it scare you to sail a boat with galvanized rigging?
    "another post suggesting NA comments of exact CLP locations for one" ??? I cannot see any suggetion of this in any of my writings at all. ???
    "You've repeatedly suggested alternative methods, materials and ideas, but have failed to supply a base line for comparison, let alone fair and even handed testing to prove your ideas. Concepts, ideas, methods and techniques that haven't any documentation, testing or reasonable argument," Here, you are totally inccorect (again) because you cannot comprehend from where I come! My baseline for comparison is that I either use cheap wire, Or I do not have electricity on my boat! DUH!! So, If I am going to use cheap wire on my boat, I want to do the best that I can with it, DUH! Baseline= no electricity! Can you understand this?
    Resonable argument? Yes, stopping water from getting in the wire with goop! It is easy to understand and tim from UK designs agreed with me in general about it (see first response). I do not take his agreement to mean that he thinks every one should do this.
    Sarcasm about capitalist gods was the regaurding notion that one had to spend the big bucks or they could in no way enjoy the water aboard a yatch! I stand by this
    :) I enjoy my time on the water as much or more than you I would wager. Polynesians probably more than both of us and they dont use ABYC stuff ( I am just guessing here)
    In your sixth paragraph, I agree with you that the PROBABILITY of failure is less with the big bucks stuff, but , if I do not have the big bucs, ???It is like saying that the probabilty of death is greater when crossing a street if one crosses when the car is 20 seconds away instead of 50 seconds away; true statement but meaningless for most. My system works for me! and you cannot stand it for some reason.
    The seventh paragraph is actually what I was hoping to iliccit from others by my original posting (as opposed to your noxious diatribes). Can you site any of these studies or elaborate on the "other methods of failure"??? It is why I posted in the first place:). I did toss out the stress riser issue because, if it was sourced as I thought it was, it was not germane to MY ENVIRONMENT! military stuff vibrates a lot more than my sailboat (just a guess actually as I am not an engineer and so cannot say this with proffesional surety) . Tossing out studies predicated on unrealistic invironments is legitamate!
    I have no problem with building codes when one is building something for another person for money...one more time: I AM NOT TRYING TO SUPPLANT THE DOMMINANT PARADIGM. please stop pretending that I am! Can you site those studies?(soldered terms). It would be the first worthwhile contribution you have made.
     
  8. terabika
    Joined: Aug 2005
    Posts: 46
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: cocoa beach

    terabika Junior Member

    I was incorrect! The baseline (to compare my setup with) is a wire without any goop from the soldered terminal to the insulation. Do you disagree that the goop would make wire last much much longer for little investment?
     
  9. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 3,486
    Likes: 97, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 1148
    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

    accid
     
  10. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 4,519
    Likes: 111, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1009
    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    For a Legal USCG style instalation the use of tinned wire and crimp connections is OK.
    The wiring MUST be both electrically and mechanically fastened.
    The proper $60 crimp MUST be used , and the "claim" (accepted by the CG) is the crimp fource is so high it makes the connection electrically as well as mechanically.

    The crimp tool will not release till the correct pressure is reached.

    For my own boat work I only use Anchor marine wire (about 5 or 10% oversized ((extra wire & copper)) in each grade , and prefer just too use #10 for every 15A circuit as spools of wire are cheaper, But not cheap!
    For Exterior cable the Hubbel folks make better wire & fittings and plugs as their "guts" are monel , not the SS used by Marinco and the other cheapies.

    The SS has far more resistance than the copper(monel) , so SS plugs and sockets burn out far more frequently.

    As a belt & suspenders to assure perfect electrical contact I use a 5lb copper roofing iron to flash each terminal.
    To do this quiclky ,( so no wire beyond the terminal is melted , loosing the flexability of tinned fine wire ) a guge heat is required , but only for a second or so.

    A regular soldering iron or gun is not capable of this rapid heating , hence the copper roofing iron.

    To finish a bit of phone company goop (free for the asking from most truck guys) is placed on the junction of the wire & terminal and 3X heat shrink is sealed over the end.

    This has worked for decades on an offshore sailboat . It takes no more time , as many ends can be sealed at once after the rough wiring is trimmed , before its conected to the breaker pannels.

    AS a simple method I use numbers stuck on each wire , at the end , and a foot in & covered with Scotch tape to preserve the readability.

    Distribution panel !#1 would have all wires marked 11 , 12, 13 , 14 ect the 1 for the panel and 1,2 3,4 for the wire on that panel.

    The marking is also used on each fixture , so if galley light 35 was out , I would go to panel #3 and toggle the 5th breaker .

    Reinventing the wheel is seldome wise , with boating going back 10 centuries , but "better" methods and workmanship can never hurt.

    FAST FRED
     
  11. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
    Posts: 16,790
    Likes: 1,714, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 2031
    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    For $60.00 you can buy a box of crimps. Was that a misprint?
     
  12. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 3,486
    Likes: 97, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 1148
    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

    everything gets more expensive these day's :D
     
  13. rxcomposite
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 2,752
    Likes: 608, Points: 113, Legacy Rep: 1110
    Location: Philippines

    rxcomposite Senior Member

    No solder

    Soldering causes a stress riser to form by fusing the otherwise flexible strand that is supposed to flex. It might break in the future because of vibration.

    Even if you use a safe flux, it may contain some corrosive materials that will eventually eat away the copper wire. you may have to dissolve the flux by a suitable solvent which is time consuming. It may be ok for now but the long term effect is dangerous.

    If it might comfort you, aircrafts and automobile wiring harness do not allow soldering. Only crimping.

    Boat wires are even recommended to be of especial copper alloy or tinned copper because of the corrosive enviroment.

    Good Luck
    Rx
     
  14. terabika
    Joined: Aug 2005
    Posts: 46
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: cocoa beach

    terabika Junior Member

    I admit the stress riser and spoke of it in first post. I just do not see how that much vibration can exsist on a sailboat. I do not have a diesel motor though. I do not allow the wire to hang from the soldered joint either; securing it at the first oportunity along its run.. I am sure this mitigates the problem . But soldereing is seemingly required of me because I do not use tinned wire. I have tried crimps and wish they worked for me but with a non tinned wire, it does not last. I have lived aboard for a number of years and have not seen any evidence of flux corroding wire. I do not claim that it never occurs but I cannot see this in my experiences. I have disasembled a joint or two, (when I want to use the bong, lol) taking the goop off and looking with a magnifiying glass at what is there, I have not seen anything deleterious to my sailing yet...I can afford to oversize a bit as I use regular old speaker wire. In spite of being in the proletariat, I am sailing ! lol....If you should ever see me burning down to the waterline, wave hello!
     

  15. jimslade
    Joined: Aug 2005
    Posts: 304
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 27
    Location: north Markham

    jimslade Senior Member

    I have seen the results of solder joints. NOT GOOD. My life is worth more than cheap wire.
     
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.