Pod cat square rigger cold weather cruiser project

Docking changes things, if you are making a habit of it an engine is nice, We so rarely tie up that we don't mind waiting a day or two for perfect weather to sail/scull/warp in.

Electric outboards are neat, but I doubt they would be much use cruising, too much complication for the little bit of power you get. Forces you into a much bigger power generation system, and carrying batteries around that almost never get used.

We currently live quite happily on a single 50w solar panel and a pair of 100 amp hour AGM batteries. Gives us lights, nav instruments and the occasional power tool through the inverter. We have a spare 50w solar panel but haven't needed to wire it up yet.

Outboards are cheap, light and easy to get anywhere. Buy one when you need it, then you can sell when you head off to a place its not needed.

We haven't needed to do this yet, but is worth remembering that anywhere there is docks there are other boats. so it would be easy to pick up a short tow from a fisherman. Even if it cost you a couple hundred dollars it would take a lot of tows to pay for an engine.

Our chain/anchor system is a bit in flux at the moment, Have 100 feet of 5/16 chain (a mix of hight test and BBB) and the rest rode as well as lots of other spare bits of chain around to add if needed or use for other anchors. We where given a windlass and some chain so that is what we are using right now. I think my ideal would be a couple hundred feet of 1/4 high test. Then you could anchor in 50 ft of water with no rode touching the bottom, and it would be plenty strong for a boat our size. 1/4 makes life really easy when you are hauling up by hand.

For anchors we have 5

A 15kg Rocna we just bought before leaving Panama-only used a couple times but seems very promising. Lives on the bow or down below offshore.

A 10kg Bruce-Our old Primary, a touch small but only dragged once when it fouled some seaweed. Once it set it would hold very well. Its a real Bruce not a knock off. Buried down deep in the Lazeratte.

A 10kg Delta-Used as a kedge, second anchor etc. Easy to row out and sets great and holds. I like these anchors. Lives in a cockpit locker on a 300 ft rode, ready to go.

A 10 kg Fortress- Huge anchor to be used as a storm anchor or in muddy bottoms. Hold amazingly well, but I don't trust it to reset after a change in wind, so it gets used in a two anchor set most of the time. Under the floorboards below, taken apart.

A 75lb take apart Luke fisherman anchor-As yet unused, bought as a back up in case we lose the Rocna and for use in kelp and rock. Lives under the floorboards with the fortress.

The only one I could do without is the old Bruce. Just keep it around as a spare now that we have the Rocna.

We also have lots of spare rode and chain, at least enough for 4 good set-ups.

Ben

 

You might consider using a wire cable for your rode. Lighter than chain, more wear-resistant than nylon/dacron. Here's a thumbs-ups from another forum:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/27862

Quote:
I would go for the 8mm or even go with 10 mm cable. You don't need the
strength but it is easier to handle and the extra weight adds catenary.
I found this helps my boat lie nicer on the anchor in waves and wind
gusts. I broke 1/4 inch (6mm) cable once when the cable was kinked when
the nicropress swage and eye got caught in some coral. I now do a large
soft splice which is easy to do with the larger diameter cable. The eye
splice I use is called a Hasty, Flemish or Molly Hogan splice and is
very quick and easy to do. Some heat shrink or hose over the splice
gives it a nice finish. I use the cheapest galv cable I can get. The
kind that has a hemp or rope core is the best since it will absorb some
of the grease and make the cable last longer. It normally has a looser
lay and is easier to splice.

My 36 footer is just over 10 tons loaded. I use about 75 feet (25
meters) of 3/8 chain and about 250 feet (75 meters) of cable. This
allows me to easily anchor in about 75 feet (approx 25 m) of water
without adding any extra rode. As you probably know, a lot of the
lagoons in the South Pacific are at least 40 feet deep. I don't mind the
weight since my winch is hydraulic. If I was pulling in by hand, I could
cut back on the length of the chain a little. Either way, using cable is
much lighter pulling in than all chain. In my opinion, nylon rode is
unacceptable around coral.

I keep the cable in one length and use a rolling (Prusik) Knot to hook a
snubber on to the cable. A Prusik knot will grip even on the greasy 10mm
cable. Using smaller cable, it may slip until some of the grease wears
off. There is nothing stopping you from using shorter lengths of cable
with eyes and it would easily allow changing or swapping one section at
a time but I have never felt the need. The galv cable is so cheap I
generally just change the whole length when needed. You could reverse it
or shorten it a bit if you want to get more time out of it. I normally
save a good 50 foot section of the old cable and keep it coiled below
for emergencies.

The grease is messy but better than having rust streaks, in my opinion.
I use an old leather glove to feed it evenly on to the drum when
bringing it in. Once it is all in the chain covers the cable so the
grease doesn't get on sails or gear. When out, you just need to be aware
of the greasy cable when on the foredeck but it is not really a problem.
Greased up every once in awhile (6 months?), the cable should last at
least two years in the tropics. I have had cheap chain last less. If you
have enough fresh water to rinse everything down, it may last longer. I
knew someone who had an old-style red-lead grease and his galv cable was
ten years old. I have always used any automotive wheel grease and just
worked it in with a rag. Having loose lay cheap galv cable helps. Marine
greases that resist washout may last longer but they may not be worth
the extra price. I have thought of trying different mixes of oil, grease
and wax but need more time to experiment .

 

Pain in the butt to store though, unless you have a fisherman style winch on your fore-deck. Won't self stow in an anchor locker. Could be made to work quite well though with some thought. Though my experience with truck winches makes me think it would be more hassle than its worth.

1/4" chain is reasonably light and stores in a very small area. Only about 140 lbs for 200 ft, and half that much would be enough chain in most places.

You want some nylon in the system for stretch, by the time a modern anchor is in any danger of dragging catenary is doing nothing for you, small boats just don't have heavy enough gear to keep the chain sitting on the bottom. Think about it, if catenary worked why would we all have to rig snubbers on our chain rodes?

 

from another thread: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/new-anchoring-system-thoughts-42273-3.html#post539354

Quote:
That is a nice one for anchor on wire cable. And not very expensive, around $780 if I remember well.

Look at the manufacturer who sells them direct:
http://www.krmfg.com/krm.nsf/Products/Winches

This is not a tentative of "product placing" it is just that I was looking for these kind of winches for years, the manuals winches with large reels almost disappearing from the market, and I find these one.
So I hope I don't transgress the rules.
Lister

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

and a follow-up from the origamiboats poster, quoted above:

Quote:
One thing I forgot to mention. If you use the larger diameter cable,
it doesn't like being wrapped around a small diameter pipe on the drum.
I built the diameter of the drum up using blocks of wood to about 6 inch
diameter. I have heard of people using wire wrapped over nylon rode on
the drum but I was worried about the wire cutting in to the wraps of
nylon in extreme conditions.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/27877

 

Neat winches, I looked for some a while back and had no luck.

But with the winch weighing 80-130 lbs, I doubt you will come out ahead. And all the weight is stuck on deck, though I guess you could mount it below, would be tough without someone on deck spotting though.

 

Brent Swain, a proponent of origami-style boat building, is a big DIY aficionado, and has designed and made his own winch -- I think out of aluminum. If interested, you could query him about it on the Yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats. He's also written a book on the origami building method, which includes a somewhat crude sketch of his winch.

Swain also notes that even though the weight of the cable (or line, if you prefer) is on deck, it is typically further aft than many chain lockers, perhaps for a net gain. Another advantage is that there is no muddy chain below decks.

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

I had been idly dreaming that I may get away with not having a windlass or anchor winch at all, but on further reflection I think that may be impractical.

I'm happy most of the time on a chain/rope mix but most boats in my area go all-chain.

A drum of cable for days where I'm iffy about the bottom may be a good option. I'll have to give it some more thought.

It's pretty easy to make electric outboards produce power when sailing just like a towed generator so they should make battery charging easier not harder, but the range will be pretty limited unless huge batteries are used.

I'm planning to have 200AHr of batteries, giving maybe 5hrs at slow cruising speed under power, ~40min at max output. In practice I'm only expecting to use a quarter of that, with the rest of the battery capacity for lights and power and as reserve.

 

If you can stay with 1/4 chain not having a windlass isn't so bad, 5/16 starts to get heavy but still manageable. We just got ours and it wasn't too big of a deal not having it before (though the day we accidentally dropped anchor in a 100ft of water was not so fun). Just make sure you have a way to rig a cockpit or halyard winch to haul chain up if you need some extra power. We had some lengths of low stretch line and a pair of chain hooks. Never needed it but good to have just in case you hook something heavy.

Most cruising sailors are retirement age, at age 30 you can get by with less gear. So take most of the cruising literature with a bit of a grain of salt.

That said, a small manual windlass sure is nice and doesn't weigh a whole lot. But they are easy to add later if short on money during initial outfitting of a boat.

 

I have a very easy question for Autodafe:

How do you plan to operate those sheet winches from the inside helm?

I have a similar setup and I've been trying to find a way to sort out that issue.

Put the winches "outside" and you have to go into a forward cockpit to operate them (that's my current plan). Put the winches "inside" and you have to contend with stinky, smelly, moldy lines that contribute to unwanted humidity and mold inside the boat.

Which evil are you choosing or did you find a 3rd way I'm not thinking of?

 

I remember reading a story about a cruiser who accidentally let out the full chain in deep water. Although the system was fine for normal anchoring, they discovered their windlass couldn't lift the full tackle weight hanging straight down. IIRC they had to ditch their primary anchor and ~500' of chain.

As you say, I can always retrofit if I need to. I'll see how the budget goes.

 

I suspect my solution won't help you much:

Basically the winches will be mounted through the floor, so the "sheet" will be outside and under the pod while the winch handle will be inside.

This only works because
a) I have a dedicated winch for each sheet; and
b) my sheets are continuous belt drives and will require no tailing.

My "sheeting" will be done by rotating the masts. On the bottom of each mast I have a planetary reduction gearbox (2nd hand out of a chain block) with about 50:1 ratio. A belt drive connects the low torque side of the gearbox to the winch output under the pod. Inside the pod I just have a winch handle and a brake for each mast.

 

Ah, you're right. Doesn't apply to a traditional rig. Thank you for sharing the idea though. It reminds me to keep thinking about ways to solve this issue on a traditional rig.