What are the steps to getting a patent on a design?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by AlaskaFisherman, Jul 12, 2005.

  1. AlaskaFisherman
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    Location: Kenai, Alaska

    AlaskaFisherman Junior Member

    My design is proving to be the answer to a lot of old boat designs. What are the steps in getting protection on my ideals.
    I am a fisherman and not a professional boat designer, but I have made changes to my 40 year old boat that are proving to solve lots of problems. I am looking for a way for me to collect payment if some one else wants to use my ideals to rebuild their old boats.
    We traveled in 8 to 10 plus sea's - coming and going, yesterday and had not of the old control problems of the old design. The bow walked up the 10 footers and the sterm held to course in a following sea's of 6, 8 and a 10 footers ever once in a while.
    What are the step in collecting on my design or should I just let others enjoy the changes for no payment?
    Winston Gillies
    Kenai, Alaska
     
  2. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Design Protection

    There is a relatively new "anti-splashing law" that is relatively cheap to get some protection from but the best protection is some form of patent-either Design or Utility. You'll need to go -as soon as possible- to a patent attorney to disclose your invention(s) which can give you an early date in future legal problems.This disclosure at a reputable attorney can probably be done for free. Then, you need to be willing to spend at least $700 to do a patent search -you should also personally research extensively to see if there is anything like it around.The patent search may not turn up everything that could invalidate your patent so really spend time searching yourself. If the search shows it's patentable it will cost from $5000 up and take anywhere from a year to two or three to get the patent. However, you do have some protection from the date you file IF the patent is subsequently granted and you can start marketing the system at that time using the words "Patent Applied For".
    There are real downsides: the protection you'll get will only be valid in the US UNLESS you file under the PCT(Patent"Co-operation" Treaty) which can cost upwards of $30-50,000 dollars depending on how many countries you file in.And you have to file under the PCT at almost the same time you file in the US or you lose the chance. Further,the patent can be pending for over 10 years under the PCT.
    There is a great deal of public and business antaganism to patents- some people may rip you
    off immediately (or after you prove the system works!) and your only recourse will be to engage
    in a lawsuit to defend the patent-if you don't defend it you lose it! Some countries like China have nothing but contempt for any kind of intellectual property and many people in the boat business are similarly afflicted with contempt for any marine related intellectual property.
    The state of the patent system, particularly how it works(or doesn't work) for the individual inventor, is a huge disgrace! I guess my reluctant recomendation to you would be not to file unless most of your business would be in the US or would be applied to products(boats and ships) that will frequent the US and unless you can find an investor with deep pockets that could help you defend your patent-and maybe help you file overseas. There are now, finally, some companies that specialize in defending patents on a CONTINGENCY basis which is a great development.
    Go talk to a patent lawyer after you've found one that is highly recommended-and good luck!
     
  3. icetreader
    Joined: Jan 2003
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    Location: USA

    icetreader Senior Member

    patenting

    It may be a design patent or a utility patent- depending on what you created.
    The most important thing to do is ask yourself what the commercial value of such a patent would be for you, or how much money you are likely to make in reality. As Doug said, patenting is an expensive business, especially if you do it properly, that is use a patent attorney and probably a technical editor too.
    If the answer is "there's a lot of money to be made from such a patent" the next step would be to make an extensive, thorough search for "prior art" in this field, that is to look for other patents and products that may limit the extent of the innovation / originality in your design / invention.
    And last but not least: If you decide to start a patenting process shop around for patent lawyers that are good and inexpensive- High price doesn't necessarily reflect good service.

    Yoav
     
  4. Tin Man
    Joined: Jun 2005
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    Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana

    Tin Man New Member

    One step that is often overlooked is to first check the U.S. Patent website at www.uspto.gov. This is NOT to be considered an exhaustive search, and it cannot replace the more thorough investigation that a qualified patent lawyer will do if you get that far. However, it is an easy and free way to quickly find out if someone in the U.S. has already patented a similar idea. If they have, then you may need to alter your design to avoid infringing on an existing patent. If you find nothing at the USPTO, then proceed with all of the previously mentioned advice.

    In the U.S., you can also file a "Provisional" patent application for a fee that is considerably less then that required for the final application. A provisional patent records your idea with the patent office, which is important if someone else later claims that they thought of it first. Meanwhile, it grants you a one year extension to more fully develop your design before filing the final application.

    Tin Man
     
  5. BillyDoc
    Joined: May 2005
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    Location: Pensacola, Florida

    BillyDoc Senior Member

    You should really think this one through very carefully. I have 14 patents now, and I can tell you flatly that you will find it extremely difficult to actually make money from a patent. There are plenty of people who make a lot of money off of aspiring inventors, however. People who will send you offers to market your invention, but you have to pay up-front fees of course. People who will offer to put you in contact with investors, but you have to pay up-front fees of course. And don’t for a minute think that a patent attorney is going to discourage you from using his services. You get the idea.

    In my experience it all boils down to one question you must ask yourself carefully: "Am I seeking a patent in the hope that some "other" will recognize my idea, run with it and make me rich? Or, can I take this idea and develop it and market it myself." If it is the former, I would like to point out that the man who developed the Polaroid process (Land) could not sell his idea to anybody at all. They all told him it wouldn't work. The man who invented the Xerox process (Carlsen (sp?)) could not sell that process to any photocopying company --- and they all told him that it wouldn't work. The man who invented the electric starter motor for automobiles couldn't sell the idea --- same reason. The man who invented self-adjusting brakes for automobiles (my father!) couldn't sell the idea to any automobile company --- same reason! And I should add that my father's dumb son couldn't learn from this experience and has had exactly the same experience himself, many times! Of course after the patent expires the idea often works just fine.

    On the other hand, if you can develop your idea and get it to market YOUR SELF then a patent is very useful to fight off the competition with. In my mind this is the only real use for a patent, because nobody but you will believe it works until they see it in the Sears Catalogue.

    Another point: as Mr. Lord has pointed out above, patents are expensive! And that is just the beginning of the expense, because there are “maintenance fees” that recur roughly every four years, and generally go up each time. This is a nice way to force poor inventors to give up on their patents early, rather than to risk another fee.

    If I haven’t discouraged you (and believe me, I’m trying!) you might want to take a look at a book from Nolo Press called “Patent It Yourself” by David Pressman. (http://www.nolo.com/product.cfm/objectID/139AEDE9-69A0-4810-A7A87D2AD5422664/310/). This is an excellent book, and actually has enough information so that a person can obtain a patent without an attorney. I have done almost all of mine this way. You need to be a fair writer, however. If this is not your thing, I will be happy to recommend a very good and reputable attorney for you, but he isn’t cheap. He has a Ph.D in physics, a law degree from Georgetown, was a former NASA research scientist, and is just plain good at what he does. You pay for that kind of talent, though, and you pay a lot! PM me if you want the contact info.

    Please get the book first. The last time I bought a copy it was $35. It is a LOT of work going this way, but you can get the patent for the cost of the fees (roughly $1,000, check the patent and trademark web site for current fees) You can also search patents back to the 70's on line at the patent and trademark website (http://www.uspto.gov/).

    Personally, I don’t bother with patents any more. I learned my lesson.

    BillyDoc
     
  6. lucdekeyser
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    Location: Belgium

    lucdekeyser Senior Member

    still better odds

    I agree with all that is written but the chances for a good return are still many times better than betting in casino's and on sweepstakes, although it may not feel that way when you're in a losing streak.

    Luc
     
  7. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I wonder where our resident Lord of Patents' mindset falls in his patented/trademarked items. Does he intend to follow your "others" track, or the "your self" track?


    Thanks for this. Seems like sage advice from someone who has had a good amount of experience with the system.
     
  8. kmorin
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Location: Alaska

    kmorin Senior Member

    what am I missing?

    Winston, and all, I think it may be a diservice to AKFis'mn to hold a discussion about patenting something that is so old and tried and true its public domain.

    Sponsons on metal hulls aren't "patentable" and those who know patents and their purpose know that, it seems to me. Many metal hulls including entire ships have had sponsons added, been stretched and had shape modifications without end. I'd bet the Navy alone has done hundreds of hull shape changes and you couldn't count their number in the private sector.

    What was done to this older cannery commisioned 60's era Cook Inlet Drifter net boat was not new, unique, or in any way out of the ordinary for metal boats. It was different in proportions for this group of commercial fishing boats in Cook Inlet, but that microscopic segment of fishing boats is negligible in the US count.

    I've stretched these boats to 36 and 38'- 18 years ago, I've redone the keels, engines and drives, houses, deck arrangements and tankage. I've added planning surfaces and gotten them up to 20 knts, brined them, replace decks and lots of others have done as much or more. Nothing in this work was any more than boat building trade craft regardless if it was unique of at the time I did the work.

    Winston was inquiring about getting paid by anyone following his ideas, but if that were going to happen whoever figured out sponsons, or stretching metal hulls would will be around with his hand out!

    The only possibility of revenue is to buy others of the the type, covert them using your methods and design ideas and sell them. But selling a Cook Inlet drift boat now with prices and openings as they are- its not happening!

    There is no intellectual right to exclusively use an idea expressed as a design that is merely a proportional change to common metal boat trade-craft event. Sponsons, elongating hulls, deck arrangements that have been in use in Bristol Bay for 20 years, slushed or brined holds; nothing here represents a patentable product, idea or event.

    Maybe if you drew up plans you could sell them, but who besides an old Matsamoto, Shore, or maybe a Marco owner will even consider it? Be honest now Winston, your Slope job underwrote the project- not your salmon season-right?

    I think the solution which the boat offers for Cook Inlet fishing is interesting -but what is it that will recieve qualification as a patentable device, design, or object?

    What am I missing?

    Winston I hope you have a decent set in the middle rip with a south west wind on a flood tide and make your season; to pay for this project! A high-line load of Kenai slabs would be a real nice return for all the effort you've spent tented up there by Mike Dale's autoparts store.

    Cheers,
    kmorin
     
  9. hang5
    Joined: Jul 2005
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    Location: Indianapolis, IN

    hang5 Junior Member

    Patent Issues

    I am not a patent attorney and don't play one on tv but I have been through the process several times. Patent law is fairly complicated and a bit frustrating to do yourself. Important considerations and steps: check out uspatent.gov to research if anyone else in the US has ever patented this, if they haven't you are only 1/2 way there because there may be an international patent out there somewhere (that final search cost me $1,000 last month (only to find that a french gentleman patented my idea and never did anything with it)), an important matter is what is called the "date of first use" if you offered it for sale or did an installation for someone for pay more than 365 days before your date of filing....it is too late and can not be patented. Another thought is if you really want to patent this idea even if you can. They are expensive to get (Costing from $5,000 to $15,000) and are only good to have if you have about $200,000 to spend defending your idea.

    You have other ways of handling the marketing of your idea..for instance you could take the idea to a big company and allow them to patent it giving you a royalty and perhaps allowing you to use it on a limited basis.

    Another thought, NOLO Press has a patent it yourself guide which is quite helpful.

    Good luck. Whatever you do DON'T go to one of those inventor protection offers you sometimes hear advertised-they are almost universally scams, a first rate "Intellectual Property" Attorney is what you are after.

    J Mart
     
  10. Jack D Davis
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Location: Elmira, OR

    Jack D Davis Junior Member

    I also hold a patent and would never bother to do it again. It was a complete waste of time and money. If you do decide to protect your idea. The very first thing you should do, ASAP, is to draw it up, describe it in detail, then mail it to yourself in a sealed, registered package. When you receive it in the mail, never open it or break the seal. The reason is to establish a firm date. Only the FIRST person to conceive the idea is entitled to a patent and the protection it provides. Even if a patent search does not turn up any similar designs, it still may not be patentable. It may be public domain. I designed a door cart in 1989 and have been selling them to my customers and over the internet since. I didn't bother to patent it and now it is public domain. If I remember correctly, it became public domain 1 year after I started selling them. I can't patent it but neither can anyone else. A patent is only good for 4 years (as I recall) and has to be renewed every four years (or there abouts) for a total of 16 years. After 16 years it becomes public domain. The only defense you have is yourself. There isn't any patent "police" agency that you can go to, to file a complaint. You have to take suspected patent infringement to court yourself.

    If I felt I really had a unique idea, I would do as I described above. Draw it up, describe it in detail, mail it to myself, registered, to establish a date. Then I would approach potential manufacturers. A non-disclosure agreement would be signed before I disclosed the idea to them. If someone is interested, then an attorney would be in order to draw up an agreement. You would then patent the idea, paid for by the manufacturer and then the patent rights signed over to them.

    My two cents...


    Jack
     
  11. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Patent

    Jack, sounds like you had a bad experience! For what it's worth my attorney told me never to mail someting to yourself; that it wouldn't holdup. He said the best way to establish a provable early date that will hold up is to disclose the patent to an attorney even if you don't go ahead with the patent at that time. He charges nothing for this service.
    A utility patent used to be 17 years but more or less recently was increased to 20 years. However, every four years or so for three times you have to pay what is in effect a tax and described as a "patent maintenance fee" by the patent office.
     
  12. Jack D Davis
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Jack D Davis Junior Member

    My experience is many years old (30?) and as I recall, it was my patent attorney that told me to mail it to myself........Things change don't they? I have a drawer full of sealed envelopes. My point was, and is, there are ways to protect your ideas, to a point, without spending your life savings, while testing the waters. Perhaps having your documents notarized and witnessed?

    Thanks for the update.

    Jack
     
  13. gregsport
    Joined: Jul 2005
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    Location: Chesapeake Bay

    gregsport gregsport

    ........Perhaps, it's time to think outside the box a bit; why not work with AlaskaFisherman and just build it-small consortium of interested members of this site.
    Overall, the boating community I have found is one of goodwill, online here is one of even higher standards. The internet has certainly joined us all together, big kudos to the people that run this site. Remember when we all had great ideas, and now there just sitting in a desk drawer? (No offence ment, I need a bigger desk).
    I just think expediency is the answer; build it, using each other as help.


    "Do, or do not; there is no try" Yoda
     

  14. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Make it work!

    You know, I've built rc model sailboats professionally for years but I'm now considering changing the business a bit by building professional "test/show" working rc models; models that can be used not just to test a concept but that can be used to wow a potential investor. I've come to this thru my own immediate need to demonstrate two wanabe major patents to potential investors.
    I think it might add to my business a bit. But many of the contributors to this forum are skilled boatbuilder/ designers in their own right and it might be something to consider: build a first class model of your project.First, disclose the idea to an attorney to get the earliest date possible. Then while you're doing an extensive search build the model-make sure it's radio controlled so you can show the thing actually working. Get a potential investor to sign a non disclosure agreement and show it to them.
    The patent office used to require a working model but doesn't any more. But these times MAY require small inventors to once again revisit the idea for the purpose of trying to finance the concept.
     
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