Just want to be updated

Hi sorry but english is not my prime language, boatsbuilding are.

Many years ago I was interduced to CAD and being a wooden boats builder, I thought of putting some of those old rutines into digital. First offcaurse I had to learn how to use a CAD program and got an AutoCAD 2.6 for a start, Thougth myself the lot became a registrated app. develober it wasn't that difficult in ver 12, stayed with AutoCAD and Lisp untill I stopped building boats, see no one seem to want a woodenboat so why continue. Anyway all the design tools were written and I gave up CyberBoat as one thing, the web were limited size and second I spended my best years gaining nothing. Realy the software were perfect ; hulls created by as many sections you wanted and smooth lines. Unfolding and various other issue solved and proved by a load of proto type boats that all were develobed from 3D drawings. Even lapstrake hulls, --- wonder if anyone other have made lapstrake unfolding, well I did and the panels produced the exact 3D design every time. Still no bread in it.
Today you can find the remains of CyberBoat at Yahoo groups where I uploaded some plans foto's and hoped for a discussion fora but I never published the software --- guess some know morphing, well what about 3D morphing that is something compleatly different than morphing two images as 3D you end up with an inbetween, that can be unfolded and build. It was just one of the easy to use design tools --- some were a bit more complicated, but the more you know the more smooth will the lines become. Some said unfolding was impossible even I could prove it is not with the boats I build. But at that time, boat design had to be done with cones, , cylinders, boxes aso. all the known geometric forms -- as those could be unfolded by the old 2 D way. That was not enough for me, as I needed software to design lapstrake hulls, and that was where it endes in succes. Still as a final contribution before compleatly broke I published a new way to construct a complete framework by the press of a button -- found out it could be used for much more than boats, and as that craft seemed dead I moved on to architecture where I were allowed 4 years at tha architect acadamy and 5 projects at the danish states workshops for arts. That was realy after this I stopped but it's an other story. Seemed only the chinese was interested in 3dh even NASA oppointed the methos as ideal for small aeroplanes, I know it is perfect for houses and will build for a forth the cost but it seem you guy's don't want new houses either, that beside staying with building methods that is a thousand years old and refusing that computer plans work,
Now NASA said that an idea like 3dh, would ask some 20 years to be understood and wanted. That is not that many years to wait, so I wonder if things changed since I stopped this silli thing ; are there today a need for unfolding software, design tools based on CAD and a new building method, that lay your engine foundations in line, while offering both floors, deck and cabin in one and same lattrice framework all to be cut from sheet material ?
Do the web offer unfolding software as good as the software I wrote and proved back so many years ago ? Do anyone of you even remember CyberBoat ?

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...60553850_1184722724_33478558_1224848490_n.jpg

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...8728935557_1184722724_33479769_88606263_n.jpg

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...51273618_1184722724_33478548_1027203860_n.jpg

 

Diagonal framing for boats may be coming, just be patient ;-)

 

Yes I too am sure about it. Problem is I guess, that it is difficult to image how efficient such a simple idea work, --- in a boat you need engine foundations, frames to fasten the floors and walls onto, beds and lockres --- what is different here, is that all those foundations sort of "grow" out of "nothing" when you assemble the framework. Look at this house, there are an internal wall and a floor beside the bottom one and what is difficult to grask is that no one "made" the floor or the wall, it just came there when the sections assembled. --- the same is easy with a boat hull in this concept.



Realy it is a very simple idea and what it produce are the intire framework, all you then need are the unfolded panels from the same design.

 

Sorry I forgot to add this folder, -- I am not sure you can reach it. It is a FaceBook folder --- there are several mainly displaying 3dh structures --- but try if you can reach it ;

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3124598752305.2155988.1184722724&type=3

 

It must be advanced. I cant see any benefit in it at all over the traditional techniques for boats.

I suppose it has the benefit of inbuilt joining methods when used in houses.

Please tell me more about its advantages.

 

Well there are nothing but advanteages, but please open your mind to this. Normaly a tradisional boat hull form partvise a honeycomb structure when stringers are atttached ontop the ribs and the paneling act as the other part of the honeycomb cells, -- say as soon the stringers are there, the hull earn a lot in terms of strength due to the honeycomb structure build by paneling-ribs- stringers. Here the attitude are that there are a 3D model and normaly you would then image this from the tradisional planes and slice the shape of the ribs from the front view. But it is not any more difficult, to turn the front view around the Y axis 45 deg. Instantly you will get the ribs where the new plane intersect the hull ( true this is the most primitive display of the hull, with a thin line showing the section cut ) --- but my idea are to not just shape the outher hull, but also "the inner hull", that is where the inner paneling will rest on the ribs not yet generated. The hull is now two hulls, the inner and the outher hull and these are draftet where they are supposed to be. If you render these shells you get an image where there are sort of a hollow you can't see, between the two hulls.
But at that stage you can turn the front view 45 deg and travel inverds each time mooving the plane the distance supposed to be between each rib.



Above a few ribs, look how they overlap and an overlap notch that is easy to make in the 3D program is made, where the individual ribs (sections) intersect ) Another example, a box like solid, that is "sliced" the same way ;



Taking a huge step, you soon end up with a framework like this ;



Please note, that all fo these are just examples, there are no gurantie, that you couldn't do with fewer ribs, or be a bit smart, and distribuate the sections into ribs like this ;



I agrea that at first this seem very different, but isn't that what we realy need ; new way's to put two things together and methods that realy take advanteage of the fact that the computer are good for calculating --- here calculating where a new section will intersect with one exactly the same shape, just all in all 90 deg onto eachother. See when you realise how time saving and how much it help with what is most difficult in constructing -- the framework, you very soon end up being able to acturly build forms like this ;



And please note, that everything is cut from sheet materials and the waste are much less than you would think, if you as one example, use sheet materials made in two layers so waste pieces can be assembled into new big panels, -- this just ask a little hands-on experience.

Sorry I continue with fuselages, but in aeroplanes "the ribs" just like in boatsbuilding, tradisionaly are paralell with the front view and none of the tradisional frames will be supportrd by the next rib. They are with 3dh, as you should see here, but please note that this only show the outher limits the shell so to say. There are nothing to hinder, that the frames are more than "rings", they can transverse into the fuselage and form foundations for whatever you can model with Solids. --- remember the floors and walls in the house I put in. Here engine foundations or hollows for tanks or seat, can be modeled into the 3D model before it is sliced 3dh way, , and as "By magic" these "rooms" will show assembling the framework. And only add to the strength of the whole honeycomb structure, acting within the outher frame.



Sorry, this is where it use to become complicated, but trust me, this underneath are buildable, but it is made only to show how 3dh act as a universal way to generate complex honeycomb structures , with the features I tried to explain above.

 

Back to boatsbuilding, here are a rendering of the panels I used building the Pram at the bottom, --- The image underneath is also renderings, -- but please remember, these boats were build, to prove the software and the unfolded panels worked. But this was still before I got the idea, with 3dh.

 

I can see some advantages for some structures - but not a single one for building boats - I cant even see where you identify any, despite your enthusiasm.

The whole idea of such complex, unusable rib systems inside a boat is a waste of materials, and makes fitting 'furniture' and say daggerboards a nightmare.

The propensity to create moisture traps must be enormous.

Other structures like houses etc, may be able to benefit from the uniformity of like shapes, but I would have to look a bit deeper.

 

Well as I said i build a number of boats and this system were develobed from the experiences that using the computer emainly mean the old methods written into fast code. Main advanteage with this system are strength and flexibility. But also the fact that ribs are here made in sheet material, The form of each frame are cut exactly from the 3D model of the hull, there are no doubt if the ribs will shape the righe foundations for the panels. Then how to do the whole thing without a huge NC. Mill ; that is easy as huge prints in monocrome are cheap.

I allway's found the ribs to be the big job, not the paneling but the framework, becaurse when the frames stand, they Must display the exact shape, here you don't meed a measure but can see the foults. Guess most boatsbuilders have this ability with lines and curves. Alternative to cut the frame calculated in shape even for a lapstrake hull, what is that, proberly not the old timbers, fitting and measuring, chipping off another millimeter again and again untill the rib rest inbetween two before and two after, then having the intire framework on paper and cutting the frames by sprayglue the plans directly onto the sheets, must be less work.

One huge advanteage that is difficult to explain, is that this concept don't cover just the framework. With a boat hull you can view it from outside in ; paneling-frame- stringer or inner paneling. These form a rigid honeycomb structure, but none of the ribs support eachother. in a plane fuselage where the "rings" work the same way, much of the stress are distribuated out into the skin paneling if there are no substitude for what we call stringers in boats. One rib in itself don't have much strength it is only when it together with panleing out and in, form the much stronger honeycomb structure.

Then distributing the frames 3dh way, is a very new and innovative way, as it replace a structural thinking that go centuries back -- bach to when we did not have computers, to where we did not model on a computer screen. So what we do, is to use the mose cutting edge designing the form, and then we build it as before we could do that. Esp. boatsbuilding, mean a lot of the measures to be taken on site, altering the design bit by bit if a problem occour, but a 3D drawing can't cheat and if a framework are just sections within that, the framework will fit. But I allmost forgot ; see it's not just the frames, but when you understand the concept, foundations for all the rest also show in real. Frames for the deck, the exact lined-up engine foundations, even beds and aptering, show as the frames ready to panel.
---- This is particular difficult to grasp, but nothing hinder the whole form to be replaced with a structural framework, --- but you are right, that when you allway's been used to a thing build in a particular way, it become an impossible task for someone like me to promote the new way to put two things together, and discussions end out in details that would not need explanations, without the conservatism that is a naturan and most often healthy part of boatsbuilding. --- There I only can say I am a boatsbuilder I even lectured at the previous boatsbuilding school, I build a load of small boats, , --- but there in the practical also lay my limits, I can't and is not good presaving people who don't want to be presaved, and before I gave up boatsbuilding I had my experience with that.

 

I think this is a very interesting approach.

What do you think of using this method to produce Kit boats which can be assembled by amatures without creating a strong-back?

~ Michael

 

It is called the NASA grid and have been used for quite sometime. Here is the article from Composite Fabrication August 2002. I think the next article covered students making prototypes using the principle.

I wonder why it has not been exploited? your illustrations are a very good example.

 

thx good read, diagonally framed skyscrapers like the new millenium tower often have a centered strongback but than again that aint boats
edit: however checking foster and partners out; this boat was at last monaco boatshow tho

 

Long story, 3dh were published by chinese archict magazin back 2004,



this was 5 years after some of the first discussions after sharing. I never wanted to patent or focus on the obvious new in this ; I wanted 3dh used to build cheap strong houses, but it was develobed with boats in mind. "Problem" about it is that it is so simple, but only when you realy realise the potentials. See you don't need to stay with one honeycomb mass --- structure -- framework or what is the best way to explain it. You can "lean" two frameworks up against eachother, you can fill it in with a framework in greater scale and other direction, --- see problem is that it also is so different from how er are used to percive a structure, offcaurse as it is basicly a new way to put things together and that is best understood in pictures for a start.

What I mean is that there are a need for cheap rugid structures for buildings, -- but generaly there are a need for way's to make what is on a screen, into the real thing. I did put an image of a building structure in, and what is interesting, beside that also are made from sheet materials is, that sheet materials can be invented for a particular use. Local sources can replace tradisional importated raw materials this way, so ontop a sideeffect is the option to develob new building materials pointed to this method. Now I do know something about structures, and I think 3dh's great advanteage also are that where you normaly use hundreds of different things, with each their production line, 3dh replace it all -- or allmost it all, -- with one material only.

And yes, -- the architects started to use it, but it is also many years I been promoting this idea.

But as a house can be build in a third the time, four times stronger, and at a third the cost, so can a boat hull. And there 3dh offer an easy and reliable way to design allmost anything, --- geometry can't be used as a bad exchouse anymore, when you can generate a framework that exactly, follow the splined lines you shaped. No need to use cones and cylinders, when the paneling can be unfolded from just any shape, --- just to know that the framework are somehow automaticly generated, by exact measuresinspire a bransd new aproach to the build works. But I must add about architecture, that much modern architecture are surface not core. 3dh is core it is nothing but core, so look out for architecture , that is an image of what the archtect think the future will look like. As that is not the way real newthinking and new designs develob. That is shapen by the needs and the possibilities in the method and materials.
I see 3dh as a mean so you can form and shape the way you prefere. Various parameters can shape a hull even the calculated results of hull resistance , experience or pure artistic feel obout a forms movements in water, but when the form is there the best would be, to press a button and let the computer generate the framework of ribs, that paneled form the strongest and most rugid structure we know, the honeycomb cell structure. If just the architects had the feel and knowleage and designed from the materials and methods rather from their image of trends, houses would be much better all way's. Sadly today, most architects who support that don't have the ability to make all this work. It is not nessery that the building is build as how it looks to be build becaurse adding a fake skin that has some 3dh apearance, is cheaper while 3dh havn't yet had it's chance. It could have in boats, and it is a method that do not ask a lot of boatbuilding experience.

 

I still cant see any time saving on boats, especially on factors of 3 or 4 times improvements. It just doesn't compute for me.

and also dimension-ally unstable. You just cant trust paper or the printer, especially on small jobs.

Whats this 'huge NC Mill' business ? I just run the disk down to the local kitchen cabinet maker, and in a week have mm perfect frames, and possibly a premarked strongback. In an hour I have the mould's sitting in a line, easy to eyeball for fairness - its that easy.

This makes no sense to me at all. I cant imagine how you make the simple sound so hard. If you CNC the moulds, mount them to the right distance, then all you need is a couple of straightedges to check the levels and fairness - so easy.

I cant imagine trying that process on a mishmash of diagonal points.

 

Imagine thinking triangulated based