Liquid Air Engine

Discussion in 'Propulsion' started by brian eiland, Jan 25, 2012.

  1. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    I'm not going through the whole thing but you've got a ton of holes in your basic understanding of how this stuff works
     
  2. RonL
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    RonL Junior Member

    I'm going to have to call it quite for now, a full day tomorrow and tomorrow night, I'll find time to consider your's and gonzo's comments.:)

    I made mention of temperature range from -44* F up to 130* F
    Pressures from 0 psig up to 257 psig, Boyles law seems to rely on constant values. I'm not good with the books, but I base a lot on my work and observations when using all these things to disperse energy, not the conservation or collecting and transformation of it.

    Thanks and good night for now.
    Best wishes

    RonL
     
  3. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    That pressure of 0 psi up to 257 psi is the energy your not getting your head around. I'm all for green, hell Im kinda the resident screaming environmentalist but your liquid air engine just doesn't fly. Oh there might be a liquid air engine that runs, but its energy budget is all kinds of screwed up.
     
  4. RonL
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    RonL Junior Member

    Good morning Boston,

    That is at least one thing I do fully understand. If one should put good insulation around the tank, open the valve to release any pressure, the results will be a 0 psig condition and -44* F.
    Close the valve and take off the insulation, place the tank in a large body of 130* F liquid, of some kind, a gauge will climb to 257 psig @ 130* F, the time that it takes for this to happen will be completely dependent on the proprieties of the tank that holds the propane.

    The factors of manipulation in how to increase or decrease this time of thermal transfer, are so many I lose track of how to decide what design to focus on.

    Before I went to sleep last night (a very short time):) I thought of two things.
    1. The laws of physics and thermodynamics work, regardless of what I understand or know how to calculate.
    I might decide to throw together something like a raft, if I know the basics of things that float, I only need to know a little book stuff if I wanted to have some idea of how it is going to set in the water, before I push it in,Right ?:)

    2. I have for now, made my best effort to try and give some kind of description about things I know and how they work in my hands and expect them to work the same basic way in my design.

    The mechanics work, regardless of me being able to understand or calculate (other than some very basic values) That is only a requirement needed in order to convey the vision of my mind and the magnitude of how well it might perform.

    The very minimum explanation I can think of, is simply this,

    ***(an intertwined assembly of a, Heat Pump, Refrigerator and Stirling Engine in a single package )***

    If one can understand a Stirling Engine driven by an electric heat element the rest should fall in place.

    If one cannot understand the path of heat transfer in all these proven machines and how the heat rejection or absorption of any one has an affect on another, then my lack of formal education is the limit of communication between anyone I try to make my explanation to.

    The sum of control for every thing, is Conduction surface area, insulation, energy conversion and storage. So many ways to use these three things, along with the induction of heat from sources outside the main tank, if one should want or need to extend the magnitude of performance.

    RonL
     
  5. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    the part your missing is that its not just the pressure that changes, the amount of liquid in the tank has been reduced as well in order to phase change enough material to raise that pressure back to equilibrium. So in fact you are still just using the stored energy in the compressed liquid to "power" the increase in pressure. Any way you slice it, its not free energy
     
  6. RonL
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    RonL Junior Member

    I have lost two post's and do not have any more time for now, I'll get back in a day or two.
    I'll do my best to be direct to each of you comments.:)

    I will be able to look in quickly, but not make comments.

    Later

    RonL
     
  7. Taranaki
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    Taranaki New Member

    H2O internal combustion

    Well, here my 2 cents.

    I've read of many stories of people using non fossil fuels to power internal combustion engines. Many websites have this type of claim and a little information,. Heres a good one http://waterpoweredcar.com/nz.html

    or visit the water powered motorcycle vid on yourtube (its a NZ 60 mins program).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POJQKg9CRJc.
    Now the guy who did the motorcycle, got visited by the big boys, and told in no uncertain terms theres things you can investigate, and things you can't. As told to me by a guy who met the invertor.

    So often the water powered theorists claim to ad something to the (demineralised/ deionised) water (probably one ingredient being lye (aka caustic soda, aka sodium hydroxide) which has many uses including cleaning dairy equipment and soap making. THe effect of caustic soda to water is to increase the boiling point.

    It also increases the effectiveness of producing hydrogen and oxygen via electrolisys as does, increasing the voltage, increasing pressure in atmospheres, amperes, temperature http://keelynet.com/energy/garrett.htm

    A diesel runs at about 300 atompheres compression, same temperature as commercial electroliysis machines, normal alternators produced the same amount of amperes, and with the likes of high voltage convertors >> http://ultravolt.com/products/16-hi...-hva-series/?gclid=CIPfiMTBrrECFYQcpAodbBcAUA you can take 12 volt DC up to 1KV >> http://ultravolt.com/products/grid/HVA_Series.html.

    So, the creation of the engine in this thread use liquid air ( which can be stored in a vacuum flask, much like liquid nitrogen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_flask > read process and manufacture of liquird air > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_air

    So, the engine runs of a process similar to a steam engine > http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?q=ho...&w=504&h=384&ei=vawMULWjDoeXiAez5IHgDw&zoom=1

    Also, note that liquid water converted to steam undergoes a volumetric change ratio of 1 to 1650 > http://www.nuffieldfoundation.org/practical-physics/change-volume-water-water-vapour ,

    So, liquid air must undergoe similar volumetric changes or their engine would not work.

    So an engine, which could probably combine al the above factors would probably run marvelously, ie, diesel engine with deionised, deminerlaised water injection (in place of diesel) onto electrolis plates while at the same time combining high intensity spark (highvoltage from sparkplug and DC step up unit), and also an injection of liquird air. Friction would keep the system hot. Hydrogen generally runs to hot in internatal combustion engine, and the liquid air injection would cool the (probable theoreticl hydrogen electrolis explosion). System would probably not start without fossil fuels tho to get up to temp. But think it would self sustain.
     
  8. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    The real question , in our quest for a better energy storage system is ,

    Are the losses created by compressing air less than the losses by creating electric and stuffing it into a battery?

    From the minimum loss view , the flywheel looks good ,

    tho its an expensive proposition till there produced 15,000 per day.

    FF
     
  9. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    I'll stick with gasoline.
     
  10. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Science fiction efficiency based on forgetting basic thermodynamics and physics. Any combustion engine is inefficient however oil energy comes from the past (potential energy), so it is basically free. Any compress air, water, hydrogen, has to be convert with present energy which means energy has to be spent now. The energy has to come from somewhere. Using potential energy to produce kinetic to produce potential to then produce kinetic when you need it. Loss are always there when you change one type of energy to another.
     
  11. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Strange that ! Maybe because they are all Bull*&^(*&^ ????

    Oh give me a break. Every 'invertor' who has a failed "invertion" got visited by 'powerful men' who told them to stop, so they can't reveal their secret. "Sorry, would really love to tell you, but then I would have to kill you ....."

    I cant believe the rubbish that people peddle for their bit of ego. I also cant believe how many people take it seriously.
     
  12. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    LENR (low energy nuclear reaction) tech is almost SI FI, but seems to slowly be progressing into reality.

    No this is not cold fusion or "dark" energy , just something that may reduce oil to use in sewing machines.

    FF
     
  13. kerosene
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    kerosene Senior Member

    This. And the fact that all of them are essentially breaking laws of thermodynamics with a fat margin. Yet the very principle of the source of the energy is NEVER explained.

    my standard reply - fits pretty accurately too all of these:

    ---


    all scams.
    I could write an essay here but I would have to re-write it every week (gets asked a lot). They all prey on the fact that people don't have too god of a grasp oh physics.

    roughly 2 alternate and sometimes overlapping claims

    1. hydrogen improves combustion - they point out that internal combustion engine only burns 30% of the fuel and hydrogen helps heat up the burning and makes it more complete. Claim is totally false - modern engines burn almost every molecule of the fuel. They are only 25-30% efficient but it is NOT because of unburned fuel. The car's engine burns all fuel - the low efficiency is result of friction, mechanical losses, heat etc.

    2. With waste current from your alternator you can create enough hydrogen to produce substantial amount of fuel for the car to burn. This is bogus on two levels. a) there is no "waste" energy from the alternator. Car's alternator creates electricity "on demand" ie. it will resist the motor more the more you have electric demand. Ever given a jump to another car with flat battery? Your car is running and you hook the cables to the car with flat batt. the idle often drops as the running car starts charging the flat battery The load on the alternator went up and the motor works harder.
    Now this electricity is supposed to split water to oxygen and hydrogen and then burn in the engine to be joined back into water. That is the claim and it can be done - however it will take multitude of more energy to split the hydrogen than you can ever recover from the joining (let alone with crappy combustion engine).

    That sort of sums it up.

    There are many obvious flaws in the systems:
    - really small currents are supposedly creating enough hydrogen to run the engine - not gonna happen unless there are higher forces and perpetual motion at play.
    - the gas doesn't need any kind of advanced metering - you just pipe it into your intake. If the amount of gas actually amounted to something substantial it could totally mess your fuel/oxygen ratios and cause serious engine damage. Also the explosion risk would be rather huge as they have hydrogen and oxygen traveling in same pipe.
    - none can really explain how this system really works - ie. what is the reason why it breaks the most fundamental physics laws of thermodynamics.

    Add to that that these systems have been around since 80s, many high profile promoters have been sued for fraud, no real manufacturer has ever adopted any of them, you can build it in your garage from stainless steel...

    Sure you can make a bubbler but it will not amount to anything.
     
  14. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "Every 'inventor' who has a failed "invention" got visited by 'powerful men' who told them to stop, so they can't reveal their secret. "

    Anyone with an invention would need to patent it , before selling it to anyone.

    Unfortunatly China and many other countries do not support patent rights.

    So the day after anything useful is patented its being either produced or experimented with ., with ZERO gain to the inventor.
     

  15. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    That is true, and there is little anyone can do about it. Even worse, if anyone actually had a workable idea, it would be stolen ( industrial espionage ) very quickly.

    That's why anyone advertising a 'secret' is a fool and/or a liar. True research is never advertised until all the funding, marketing and distribution is organised.

    But, inventors take note - you may not make money through royalties, but many inventors get offered lucrative research grants if they come up with something worthwhile in their live, and there is also the book and film, or at least YouTube advertising revenue ;)
     
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