Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

===============
Peter, I strongly urge you to take a hard look at the bi-foiler configuration in applications on larger boats including keelboats. Pay particular attention to "Veal heel" sometimes called "weather heel" by the unconverted. Veal heel can only happen on a bi-foiler on foils-it is the only form of weather heel that actually moves the CG of the hull to windward along with everything else. It can generate up to 40+ % of the RM on any boat that is able to use it-that is a colossal breakthru in design.
Here is your paper(if you have any trouble let me know-I can e-mail it to you):

 

Peter;

Herreshoff's cats were definitely not banned. Amaryllis was disqualified from only one race. That may appear harsher to us, in the 21st century, than it did to those in the 19th century who were faced with the arrival of a completely different type of craft into a race full of boats that had developed from working boats and were often later sold as working boats. It was perhaps similar to a Formula 1 car appearing at a time when every previous racing car had been developed from trucks.

The cats were raced by several yacht club commodores and were allowed to race even by the New York Yacht Club, whose founder was a cat pioneer. The cats raced in their own class but that was 1000% normal - at that time schooners only raced other schooners, catboats only raced other catboats, sloops only raced other sloops, etc.

The cats were treated just like Canoes, Raters, scows and almost all other types in that they were expected to race among their own type. Their treatment was actually much more welcoming than that of proas (which were banned from races by organisations such as those that run the French trans-Atlantic races and the NZ Multihull Yacht Club) or foilers (banned by such open classes as the As) or even tris (not allowed to race in the A,B,C or D class).

Even if the cats HAD been banned by the NY club, there are indications that such a ban would not have stopped their progress. Centreboards had been banned in the UK (early centre of yacht racing) but that did not stop them from racing in the USA. Sliding planks were banned on UK canoes because they were too hard to use on the canoe's home waters, but that did not stop them from being used in the USA. Cats were raced and sailed in New Orleans, the Great Salt Lake, Sydney and other places. Being banned from one city in a big wide world does not stop people in other areas from sailing a type, just as the fact that the ban on sandbaggers in NY did not stop people from Sydney sailing similar boats.

Considering that the very early cats had been pioneered or encouraged by such extremely wealthy and/or influential people as the founder of the NYYC and owner of America; King Charles II; Samuel Pepys, sometimes known as the father of the Royal navy; William Petty, member of the world's greatest scientific body of the time; the Commodore of the New Jersey Yacht Club; the President of the Mattituck Boating Club, and the Commodore of the Atlantic Yacht Club (power cat) it is surely impossible to say that they were discriminated against.

The very first regatta of the National Yachting Association of the United States in NY included a cat division, which got MORE prize money per boat than any other. It was stated at the time that the committee even tried to find a cat that could compete with Amaryllis in speed. When a national association gives more money and tries to get more entries for cats, it's hardly banning them or discouraging them.

It is incorrect to say "up to that point things were not banned but allowed to develop." Shifting ballast in large yachts had been banned after the Mohawk disaster in the USA, and for some time previously in the UK. Centreboards had been banned by some major clubs in Australia some time before the cats came out. Many boats were "banned" from classes they did not fit into - cutters were "banned" from racing with schooners most of the time.

Nat Herreshoff himself said that cats would not "displace our ordinary style of yachts". He also said that cats were not suited for extended cruising. He later wrote the Universal Rule for monos to prevent excessive development of light scow types. In other words, Herreshoff was actually regularly in FAVOUR of bans. He did not ask for cats to take over, only for "a club and an annual regatta" for cats. Francis Herreshoff was actually quite critical of cats in some ways.

Nat Herreshoff got MORE than he asked for. Instead of discouraging cats, many of the most influential sailors got into them. Instead of being banned, they were treated at least as well as other craft. Instead of getting one annual regatta, they were welcomed into many.

The cats were NOT banned - that is the simple and plain truth.

Secondly, it would be interesting to find any true basis for saying that sailing is "out of step with technology and modern values". Sailing has long been up with Formula 1, for example, in its use of materials such as carbon fibre. Commercial airliners are only recently getting around to using advanced composites in the way sailboats have been doing for decades.

Not only that, where is the evidence that incorporating modern technology to increase performance actually improves the sport? Most sailors are fairly smart, pretty knowledgeable and experienced. They mostly choose slower, simpler, cheaper craft. Unless one is arrogant enough to assume that one (for some unknown reason) is definitely better at working out what other people should sail than they are, shouldn't we accept that they choose to sail what suits them best?

In this way, maybe the NY cats died out (as they did) for reasons that are not discreditable to anyone? That's the impression I get from spending hours reading the LF Herreshoff letters, as well as occasional independent information such as the history of the New Orleans YC and early cats from Foy, Mander etc. There was no conspiracy, no hate, no power-broking, no anti-development attitude- it was just that at that time intelligent open-minded people found that monohull sailing generally suited them better as a leisure pursuit.

That doesn't mean that modern cats are worse, or better, than monos. It just means that at the time they did not attract enough interest.

PS - I agree with your point to Doug - Moths are great, but to call them the most significant class for 100 years is a stretch.

PPS - what Herreshoff cat sailed in the UK and beat all comers?

 

Hi Doug - Thank you for the paper. I appreciate the application of weather heel on the Moth. Unfortunately it is not a scalable or generalisable (if thats a word) virtue. It is a solution that fits a circumstance and a particular set of boat rules.

What I am trying to say is that Sailing as a sport is very inhibited in its potential. Unfortunately all sports are the same. Its the nature of sport vs utility. Cars are far more advanced and continue to advance because we see the benefit (maybe) in the advancement economically. In terms of being an athlete there is no benefit in advancing a boats design. We can prove whether one sailing "athlete" is better than the other with a hanky and a log vs 2 of the most advanced sailing boats on the planet. When sailing boats were linked to economic development they progressed on a daily basis. If something could be done easier or cheaper then it happened as it made sense. Once it became a sport its modus operandi had to change. Its the same in motorsport and bicycles and nearly any equipment oriented sport, especially sports linked to the Olympics. For many years I built bicycles for elite athletes and Olympians. I was pushing the boundaries of design for the athelete so they could go faster or at least think they could go faster. It was and will continue to be a problem balancing what an athlete "is" and can do vs what the equipment does for that athlete (its the same debate as the drug debate). I notice that in many of the press releases and videos about the current Americas Cup they refer to the sailors as athletes. They are trying to decouple the old expectations/perceptions and images of what sailors where and bring the new viewers perceptions into line with what we think modern professional sports people are (maybe). ie Athletes not sailors. Its possible to build a wonderful and fast sail boat right now. But it has to have a purpose, an arena, a job to do, then there has to be a will to do it and the resources and determination to realise it. Then anything is possible. When fuel becomes expensive or scarce perhaps we will see freightor sailboats plying the seas again and I bet they wont be square riggers made from timber! Lecture ends here. Peter S

 

Hello CT 249, and thank you for the information. I was reading an article by Nathaniels son and he used the word "banned". He said his father was most dissapointed in the attitude of many people towards his cats. Nathaniel was definitely a genius and it's clear this did not stop him from doing what he did. Its fair to have different classes of racing boats and this is natural. I have no political agenda here it seems I'll have to do more reading up on sailing history. Peter S

 

====================
Peter, veal heel works on any bi-foiler from 36" to 60' on up IF you can initiate it and control it-which can be done.

 

Hi Peter, and thanks for taking my essay the right way! I love multis (we sold the cat some time ago but I'm currently sailing a 9m tri in shorthanded events) but as you note they don't suit everyone.

Yes, LF's Herreshoff's use of the term "banned" (while often quoted) is incorrect, and also at odds with his later remarks on why the cats of the time died out, as contained in the Mystic Seaport Museum archives. There's also a mention of articles by Nat and his brother on cats in The Rudder and Yachting in 1947 which could produce some interesting info on what happened; I must track them down one day.

I've only found out this stuff since information such as LF Herreshoff's letters and the archives of the NY Times were put on line, so I can understand why earlier generations believed the incorrect story that cats were banned.

I can understand why the story is popular, because it's a great story - it's got a neat conclusion, it contains a plot, it has conspiracies, heroes and villians - it's just wrong!

 

CT249, since I haven't read the archival stuff on Amaryllis, give you benefit of doubt on banishment or not. However, there was in Christchurch, on the estuary, way back in 1933 a catamaran designed and built by the clever and innovative Stanley Mander (father of medalist Peter Mander) who built an 18 foot catamaran which sailed so fast that no-one was interested in racing against it for it could do three laps of the estuary course to other centreboarders two. And that may be closer to the reaction of sailors in the US ... the catamarans were so fast they ostracized themselves; still happening today - but there are more enlightened sailors about to counteract inherent yachting conservatism. But I bet, "no-one was interested" was highly euphemistic - because we know from today's reactions, there is considerable anger/mouth frothing created by "the faster, cleverer design." Plus ca change plus .....

 

I don't think there's any doubt on the historical record, Gary. Outing magazine, the NY Times, and LFH's records all confirm that cats were not banned and in fact received the same treatment as other types. The Man himself, Nat Herreshoff, was happy to say that cats would not dominate and that "freaks" (to use his term) should be banned even if they were "faster, cleverer" designs.

Sure, some may froth at "faster, cleverer designs", but there is also a large amount of people who slag off others by insulting slower boats, thereby arrogantly assuming that their own tastes are better. If people feel that they can slag off slower or older boats, surely they can't complain if slow- or old-boat sailors slag them off as well?

To say that there is "inherent yachting conservatism" could be seen to be implying that there is a superior or value-free vantage point from which one can judge how well yachting reacts to technological development. I'm not sure, personally, whether any such vantage point exists. For example, to assume that a craft that is faster is therefore a superior craft is a value-based judgement. To say that people are "conservative" in their attitude to development implies that they are wrong - yet how often do we have a reasoned, constructed argument to demonstrate the alleged error? Normally it's an accusation with no logical foundatiion.

The fact that you refer to "more enlightened sailors" indicates that you think that others are less enlightened and therefore inferior. I still don't believe that it is right to call other people inferior because their personal tastes differ from yours..... that seems basically extraordinarily arrogant. I never want to sail a Heron but if Joe Blow does, the best of luck to him - why assume that he's not enlightened?

The tale of the Mander cats seems to demonstrate that a certain type may not succeed for reasons that have nothing to do with conservatism, or prejudice, or the merits of the type. Peter Mander says that his dad's cat was (if I recall correctly) "no fun for him" because it could do three laps of the course - it wasn't that it was no fun for other competitors. His brief account (and, I think, the brief mention in the CYC history) do not say there was any prejudice against the cat - Mander specifically denies that he was prejudiced against cats but he personally preferred to race other, slower, boats.

There is no evidence that the Mander cats stopped racing because of conversatism, or prejudice - they just did not achieve the desired object of providing the most enjoyable racing experience for their owner.

Peter Mander can be seen as a classic case. He had been brought up with cats, he specifically denied being prejudiced against them, but he preferred to sail slower craft of a different sort. What's wrong with that?

To bring the conversation around full circle - it seems that for these reasons, it's hard for some of us to see the Moth (or perhaps any boat) as the biggest advance for 100 years. Given what most people choose to sail and for an array of practical reasons (i.e. many people sail on small and fluky waterways where most people find a fast boat is a PITA) to isolate one high-speed boat as "the biggest advance" could be seen to be using very narrow criteria.

 

Some good points CT - BUT (and this is not relating to their family's catamaran but with Z Class dinghies), the Mander boys came from a unique sailing family, original thinking was encouraged by their free thinking father and they grew up designing special dinghies. Graham Mander was considered “a clever, shifty chap” because of his “suspicious” backyard modifications to his Z Class Takapuna dinghy. Peter wrote later in his biography, “Even though literature on overseas yachting development invariably came from Britain, the Northern Hemisphere influence amongst sailors here is minimal – and the reason that multitudes of overseas dinghy designs are not here is because they are duller than comparable craft sailing in New Zealand.” Notice the word duller, which to to me, means slowness, plodding and so on, the opposite of sparkling and speed.
This attitude was not accepted by Anglophiles here and the Manders were construed as, “Upstart estuary people with their deplorable bunch of butter boxes.” This had no effect on the brothers who were full of bright schemes, were hard sailors but they were seen as a threat to established behaviour of the day and some blatant victimization occurred regarding their altered Idle Along when members of an Auckland regatta conference were determined to get the boat rejected – and were successful.
Now this is with slower, acceptable Takapuna dinghies, yet we see the same old reactionary response. Enlightenment, in my book, has nothing to do with superiority, as you imply, simply means that some are open to new thought or even radical thought - without it becoming a threat to those who paranoiac-like, take it as an attack on their reason for being.

 

Moth on Foils! ------Mach II doesn't win??!!

from Scuttlebutt Europe today:

Zhik 2011 Moth Nationals Heralds a New Champion

Stokes Bay provided what is surely one of the most memorable Moth National Championships and certainly a talking point for many years to come. With conditions ranging from 25knots and big confusing sea state to shifty marginal winds against a strong tide, many of the competitors were pushed to new levels in trying to adapt.

The man who managed to adapt best and put together an excellent regatta was ex Olympian, ex Moth National Champion and newly crowned 2011 National Champion Jason Belben.

Saturday became the turning point of the event with winds again in the early 20s and a very confused sea state that saw carnage at the windward mark. As the leaders rounded, many following found themselves unable to bear off for the downwind leg and most of the top 15 pitchpoled around he spacer mark providing a minefield to negotiate as well as the difficult swell and chop.

After two races it was decided to abandon racing for the day with so many broken boats and sailors.

Sunday and final race day, the competitors were greeted with a flat Stokes Bay and a gentle 8 knots on the course which would present a completely different set of challenges to the sailors.

This would be where tactics, flawless boat handling and equipment would decide the winner.

The final race was won convincingly by Jason. So after many years of Simon Payne (Mach 2) dominating, Jason Belben is crowned National Champion (Aardvark Ninja) using the latest iteration of Ellway foils.



Top 10 final standings:

Jason Belben (Stokes Bay SC)
Arnaud Psarofaghis (Switzerland)
Chris Rashley (Royal London Yacht Club/ Stokes Bay SC)
Simon Payne (Hayling Island SC)
Mike Lennon (Hayling Island SC)
Richard Lovering (Hayling Island SC)
Ricky Tagg (Hayling Island)
Pete Barton (Lymington Town SC)
Tom Offer (Rock SC)
Jason Russell (Hayling Island SC)

 

Moth on Foils!

Good video from Germany: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xR-CW_053Y
Mostly light air....

 

Moth on Foils!---fastest dinghy in history

Heres another really neat video from the front page of SA this morning:
http://vimeo.com/26566231

 

Um, Paul B if you were there, you know that the reason so many boats didn't complete more races is because there was f-all wind for most of them, and many of the sailors weren't willing to race in that condition. The top three places were taken by people weighing less than 165lb, mostly because they were the only ones who could reliably foil. It had nothing to do with anyone being in "survival mode".

Who decided who was"racing" and who was "competing"? You?

Moths can be a handful for a variety of reasons. In this case however, the reality of our regatta had very little to do with the point you are trying to make. Sure, development classes are challenging. Sure, they are expensive. and yes, they will never dominate popular sailing in terms of numbers. But when you "feel bad" for sailors who have been in serial capsize mode all day but return to the dock with a great story, what are you really saying about yourself? That you don't think trying and failing is ever justified in dinghy sailing? If so, that's rather pathetic, and precisely the wrong message to send to younger sailors. If I had to pick a role model, forgive me for reaching a little higher:

The Man in the Arena
is the title of a speech given by Teddy Roosevelt at the Sorbonne in Paris, France on April 23, 1910. It was subsequently re-printed in his book Citizenship in a Republic.

The speech is notable for the extended passage:

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
__________________

There are plenty of challenging recreational activities I am happy to let others undertake. But I will never fault them for trying - to me a sailor who collapses on the dock after a day's sailing deserves some measure of admiration and encouragement - not sympathy.

Peace,
Karl

 

Very well done ,Karl!
----------------
Next weekend in Switzerland is a sort of test race(as I understand it) involving three cats and a Moth. I'll follow it in this thread: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/test-race-39658.html

 

Moth on Foils!

From Scuttlebutt tonight:

STATE OF THE CLASS

Ever since foils were added to the International Moth in 2003, the class
has been elevated both literally and figuratively. Growth in the U.S. was
flying high for the 2009 CST Composites Moth World Championship in Cascade
Locks, Oregon, where 33-year old Bora Gulari became the first American in
33 years to win the title.

Now two years later, Scuttlebutt checked in with class promoters Matt
Knowles and Anthony Kotoun who file this report on the State of the Class:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Moth class in the US is in a good place right now, but we also have
work to do. First, our strengths: we have small but growing fleets
scattered around the US (mostly Southern California, the Pacific NW,
Newport, and Annapolis areas), we have a number of US sailors who have
demonstrated that they can compete internationally at the highest level,
and we have an even bigger group of dedicated Moth sailors who are doing
lots of racing and pushing the development envelope at every turn.

Perhaps the best thing we have is lots of Moth sailors out there just
enjoying the foiling experience. The thrill of foiling has attracted many,
and the word is spreading! The boat itself is also a strength. A new Moth
is a turn-key operation that -- with a few hours assembly -- can be foiling
well straight out of the box. The boats are getting faster, way more
reliable, and easier to sail every day.

But we also have challenges. Above all else, we need to increase the rate
of growth in our fleets to sustain more local and regional racing. While
the fact that the boats are insanely easy to ship around makes traveling a
breeze, having more local and regional races will solidify the class. Part
of the challenge is convincing folks with older foiling Moths that they
should not stay on the sidelines just because they are not riding the
latest & greatest. Likewise, we need to continue to pull new people into
the class.

Things are going in the right direction. 10 years ago, the US Moth class
was dead. Today, it is growing. The challenge for the class now is to keep
up the momentum. So how do we get to where we want to go? Here is our
three-part plan: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/11/0913/