The perils of edgy design offshore

Perils of Edgy Weather in Any Boat

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You're probably right, Guillermo, but there were a lot of doubts(and still are) when canting keels first came out and they have pretty much proved themselves seaworthy for round the world races. In the case of the folding wings, it seems to me that the engineering would probably be a bit less daunting than moving a large portion of the weight of the boat underwater and having it strong enough to function at 40 knots boat speed jumping off waves.
A folding system might be a way to make existing and new winged designs safer-at least it seems that way to me at this point.

 

With respect, you’re missing the whole point.

I’ll join the dots…

Lake, with a min fetch 50-70nm, max 450nm….assume min fetch, and a steady 20knots after 5 hours you’re going to get some 5ft waves and some 65ft length. Which equates to a period of some 3.6 seconds….short, choppy nasty!

You have what was reported at the time, extreme weather, ie very hot sun, ideal for thermals and squalls etc…so is the weather pattern normal, nope, can this exacerbate normal patterns, yup.

Thus in a race that has a min fetch of 50nm and max 450nm…with race times in the order of 2 days (48hours), what are the odds of getting wind speed greater than say 20knots? Couple that with the ever increasing fetch, what are the odds of encountering waves greater than 4-6 feet and wind that is not steady state?

Then factor in the extreme weather, what occurs steady wind…nope…gusts…yes..and a lot more….oh, sounds like “offshore” racing conditions., ie unpredictable and could get a whole lot worse.

To imply…oh, it was unforeseen and localised and thus can’t really blame the weather, as noted endlessly on this thread (which may be you have not read in total), is fantasy. This occurs every day offshore.

There is PLENTY of data to suggest that extreme conditions could be encountered. However, none of the data available suggests that such a boat as the K35 is capable of sailing safely in such conditions. It is outside of its limits. It was "assumed" to be safe.

I have no idea what my location in Japan has to do with this?

 

still not understanding.for that area of the country at this time of year that is NORMAL summertime weather

IE 85+ degrees usually above 90 and humidity above 80% starting early in june and running into september day in and day out

it does not take hours to brew up a storm I personally have seen a freaking twister form out of a cloudless sky on such a day in less than 3 minuets this is the kind of day that brews up monsters such as the tri-state tornado of 1925 that left a swath of destruction over a mile wide across illinois,indiana, and ohio. on the flip side winter is 5 months long but thats another story.

i am not knocking forecasts and all that not at all my only point here is to point out that on the great lakes,IF you get caught up in the convergence of the harmonic wave effects And the core of the worst of the squall line squalls....BE GLAD ANYONE LIVED.
and no forecaster could ever predict where that precise convergence will happen.

i have refrained from commenting about the boat specificly because i consider myself biased about it IE i dont like it personally, yea sure it may be fast and all that but i dont like the hull form at all. and that is all i will say about it

only reason i mentioned japan was because of their volume of exports and the likelyhood of you actually talking to somone about the lakes in person who had made trips on them.

IM

 

Things posted on this thread are amazing.

Someone posts a terrible sketch showing lack of fundamental understanding of hull design/buoyancy distribution and it is greeted with "nice work" by someone else who is supposed to be a professional.

Add this to all the other nuttiness about the wing being a keel so it actually saved lives ( I guess it just balanced on edge until those in the water could get to it? Not to mention they went in to leeward of the boat and it would have been blowing down on them, not away from them...), other people posting graphs of unballasted hulls (this boat seems to be ballasted), others talking about non-similar boats being pinned down (as a "good" thing?), bad math, bad assumptions, etc. The result is a lack of credibility for both sides and an embarassment for a site that is supposed to be about design.

 

Paul, it seems that design, like politics, gets mired in most people's poor understanding of reality. They have an assumption, then go to great lengths to make the "facts" fit the pre-determined result they wish to validate their beliefs about design or anything else. Unfortunately few of us get the time in life to really get deeply experienced at sea, so you hear more BS about the "real ocean" than anything besides economics. This site has some very astute and aware marine professionals who slap the rest of us back to reality.
Thanks.

 

The "professionals" you speak of have made just as many (or more) poor assumptions and silly graphs as anyone else on this thread.

 

To err is human. To err again is to go back to sea.

 

The Perils of Edgy Weather in Any Boat

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You slag off professionals and others on this thread and you have never ,ever designed or built a boat?! THAT is amazing!!!

from LAC thread 2010 / Bishop

 

You continue to show your lack of reading comprehension. You should try reading what I wrote, not just a snippet.

Your sketch is so laughable no one with any self-awareness would ever post it on an internet discussion board. All it does is prove, once again, that you have no abilites when it comes to design.

After posting around the internet for most of a decade I would think you would have at least tried to learn some basic skills. It is hard to imagine that someone who so desperately wants to be considered a designer would not attempt to gain rudimentary skills.

 

Paul, you're sounding quite sniffy and righteous. Being pinned down is not a "good thing" - just that in vile conditions (or carrying too much or jammed sail) many boat designs, light and heavy, have found themselves in such a predicament. Some Open 60's have stayed sideways for hours; I remember one example when Loick Peyron towed Poupon's Briand designed ketch upright (the weight of water filled double rig and sails kept it this way) with his own Open 60, otherwise it would have stayed in that position for days. **** happens, possibly the only true thing that Rumsfield ever said. Admittedly the K35 was not the best ocean design but reading between the lines, the owner had done many similar races with the boat, a boat 2 to 3 decades old, without problems ... and it was his, and the crew's, decision to race. Over here, although the even older, but advanced, Young Rocket designs were not intentionally built to do such things either, designed for Hauraki Gulf and Harbour sailing, but they have done so, winning hard coastal races (and in NZ, most of the coast is wide open to the Tasman and the Pacific) and have crossed to New Caledonia on more than one occasion. Some critics may say this is "death wish" stuff ... but it is not. Humans (some) enjoy pushing the boundaries. End of story.

 

Gary, as you know I am a proponent of light boats. I've sailed on the Kiwi 35 and also on the similar Moore 30 winged hull. Last month I took my lightweight boat out doublehanded to watch the start of the Transpac. After the start we reached out to mid channel toward Catalina Island before gybing back toward home. If we had been knocked/pinned down and thrown in the water we would have been in trouble with no help in sight. That's the chance we all take every time we go out.

I have not taken either side. I have not said anything like "the Kiwi should not have been allowed". Conversely I have not said it was a good idea to sail that boat in that race. More important, I have not made crazy comments or fabricated "calculations" to prove my point-of-view. In high school chemistry class we called it 'Manipulating the Data" to get the conclusion we wanted. It wasn't good science then, and what I've seen in this thread is just as useful.


Adults can make decisions for themselves. The Kiwi 35 may have been able to race that race 18 of the past 20 years with no reason for concern. In fact, I think statistics would show the crew would have been in more danger driving from home to the boat.

However, there were two minor children on that boat in that race. That might have some people look at things differently. Of course if they had stayed home for the weekend and been out driving themselves around Sat PM they would have been in danger there as well.


There were some Open 60s that flipped and never came back up. Open 60s are raced by professionals who are paid to sail them. Folks know what that is about. The race in question is a glorified club race.


The concern I have is when these things happen it makes it more difficult for clubs to run races for us. Insurance companies will run scared if the families sue the club over this. No insurance will mean no future races.

 

Brigantine ALBATROSS and Baltimore Clipper PRIDE OF BALTIMORE were both pinned and sunk by similar prolonged downbursts I believe, so it's not just edgy racing boats that can be overwhelmed.
Anyone who steps aboard a boat of any kind is taking a risk. This was a sad tale, but the racers know they are pushing the envelope, that's the thrill isn't it? Possibility of disaster? Like riding a fast motorcycle on a twisty road, it's not safe and that's one of the reason people do it.

 

So, what are you basing this opinion on?

So you would prefer to leave safety to chance? However, since if you are able to state you would be in trouble on this boat, why could not the owner state the same? Clearly your opinions are diametrically opposite. Coupled with having children on board too, just exacerbates the decisions taken.

Thus, in the absence of self policing not working, as this sad episode appears to indicate, how else do you tell someone that they should not go to sea,…”awe sucks, you’re spoiling my club racing and fun”. …who are you or anyone else to tell them that they cannot and should not go out? Let them go out and gamble with their lives, because they are sure their boat is seaworthy, and your opine counts for nowt…my dog is bigger than yours!

Insurance companies etc are only dragged in when someone wants to portion blame. Someone wants a “right” or “wrong” decision made to vindicate themselves or chastise others.

If you self police, fine go for it…you won’t get anyone complaining. Except for the poor soles who are in an accident and suddenly want explanations; assuming they survive.

Exactly!...and since the club doesn’t want to get dragged into the safety issues of the boats with respect to seaworthiness, where does that leave you?

Self-regulating. Which goes back to my original question…what opinion did you based your conclusion on that you would be in trouble if knocked down?

Oh how brave.

You state you would have been in trouble, knowing this boat intimately. Yet you don’t want anyone to tell you this or the owner not to sail her in such conditions, as you think that is "taking sides". It is not about taking sides, it is about safety and mitigating risk which it appears you have already done in coming to your own conclusion. So, since you have already done so, stand up and be counted, or are you afraid of others criticising and countering your opinion/conclusion? Otherwise more lives shall be lost by ignorance and arrogance.

 

Paul that was a good post ! I think you have already stood up and been counted

 

Subtly..and kind of

Seems odd though, if this is known, and factual...join the dots!