The perils of edgy design offshore

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I would think so considering the inverted pictures.
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Just found a picture and stats on a Moore 30-with less ballast than the Kiwi and folding wings. I wonder in a boat like this: if the wings could have been folded up and locked in place before the storm hit could the incident have been avoided?



click on image---(note view of deck where fold line and hinges are clearly discernable--last picture shows one wing on Kiwi 35 folded up.

 

Obviously the quote regarding the wing touching the water if one person stands out on it is a lie.

 

Perils of Edgy Weather in Any Boat

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Good observation, Dennis-I hadn't noticed that! Maybe not a "lie" but, shall we say "unfounded speculation".

 

Perils of Edgy Weather in Any Boat

Here are two rough sketches showing the very approximate net +RM @ 130 degrees of heel. The picture on the right shows the boat with the wings folded. Seems to me if canting keels and canting masts can be engineered for 100' yachts a robust folding system like this could be developed as part of storm preparedness for this type of boat and MAYBE significantly reduce the danger in the kind of rare and edgy weather Wingnuts was subjected to.
"Batten down the hatches ---and fold and lock the wings!"

click on image for best detail: (Note the image with the folded wings also has the vertical CG adjusted as per a suggestion from Guillermo. Again, a sealed mast and masthead flotation could be significant improvements-not included here. Displacement is based on the latest info from one of the owners and Meade Gougeon: 3250lb displ. (minus crew) and 1500lb in the ballast bulb)

 

I cant even remember who said it here. Lets put it down to "unfounded speculation" for the person who quoted it, and a lie for the person who made it up in the first place

 

The Perils of Edgy Weather in Any Boat

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Done!

 

This was the third party observation from the feedback on the news story on one of the local news sites.
To re-quote:
"Even the owner who died posted on a sailing blog that it was 'tender' to sail and if 2 people moved onto the 3 ft wide wing, the wing went under water"

I asked Doug "did you seen this?" I was hoping someone new the source forum it was taken from.

Commenting on the picture, I don't think you can draw any conclusions from that. You have no idea what the lines are doing and if the boat is tender its easy to restrain it to limit the heel . Or drop the bulb into the mud.

 

Yes folding up the wings would have helped a lot but so would motoring slowly to weather or lying to a drogue or running with it. Beam on is the inevitable position and the dangerous one for any vessel of any size, and much worse for a winged boat.

Do you understand the dynamic contribution of the wings or even a deck edge in a violent knockdown?

When exactly do you think a racing skipper is going to mothball his boat or do something like start the motor for an unexpected event ?

If this thunderstorm and squally weather was actually forecast. The best place for that boat would have been with it's wings up firmly tied to the dockside !

 

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Wingnuts was advised of the approaching weather in time to take the sails down. They would have had time to fold the wings if that had been part of their storm prep and if the wings had been designed to be folded in such a case. There are all sorts of options to make a folding wing system work well in any circumstance.

 

Can anyone find a reference to these craft digging in and snowshoveling water due to sway? Someone posted that the boat would bear off dramatically if the wing went in. That would eliminate sway through course correction. I don't have to struggle too hard to imagine the boat bearing off and skidding on top and not biting till way, way over. Like at the point where the crew abandons all hope anyway. The breaking wave jet looks like it could blow the boat out of the water and flip it before it landed though. Thats an energy analysis and somebody ought to have those numbers.

 

With a transom hung shortshaft kicker on a 35 foot boat in 6' seas? Not happening.

 

I think that locking of the wings would be difficult, heavy and expensive to perform to get strong structural characteristics able to withstand a knockdown. But even if feasible, I think the KISS principle should stand for an offshore boat: simply no wings.

 

there is one thing though a lot of people are forgetting or in fact do not know about it, so as a reminder just how violent the lakes can be there is this.
http://www.uscg.mil/history/WEBSHIPWRECKS/EdmundFitzgeraldNTSBReport.pdf
if you care to cut to the chase for the graphic part scroll down to page 37 and 38
now all the rest of the factors aside that ship flat ran into and punched through[its loaded with taconite ore pellets] a standing wave from inherent harmonic lake/bathtub wave action combined with white out blizzard conditons that was taller than it was and there was flatly no way to see it coming and when it collapsed for the extra deep trough that came just behind it the nose goes in and burys itself in the lake bed as shown just after its snapped in half by said wave. they estimate a 18 minuet period for her dissapperance...my flat opinion is the lake opened up and closed over them and they were gone as fast as your reading this.
all that any boat can do in those conditions is be glad they live period on any of the great lakes.
#2 you ocean guys speak of sea room, its a freshwater lake 450 some miles long and 50 to 70 miles wide...there is is not any. the main shipping channel north and south is at most 15-30 miles wide outside of that are the wreckage studded graveyards of boats/ships old and new. the lakes invented whaleback cargo haulers for this reason. basicly 90% of prevailing wind patterns paticularly going south are from w to w/nw ie from over your right shoulder.

i repete anyone that gets out of that and lives is lucky period no matter their boat or skill.

IM

 

Which is the reason i posted this graph previously, again below:



Reports of 4-6 foot waves (not big at all) have been noted on several links/pages.

You can see it only requires a fetch of some 10nm and blowing for some 2-3hours when blowing just 30knots!

 

i am sorry you're not getting the idea here very well...in a downburst such as this..yes i have see the video, their looking directly at the face of the storm when they took that video, what your really seeing is the nucleus of the squall itself think matrix reloaded commander mech just before the machines over run him at the gate. thats what your looking at.

4-6 feet...thats normal lake michigan chop on most days with any kind of breese....these late night storms brew up and the tops bust up to stratospheric heights generating what we call heat lightning and from the center of the state know where battle creek Mich is? everyone ought to, kelloggs and post cereal own it basicly that where they make all those corn flakes dont cha know

anyway u can see the pillars of heat lightning from the center of the state and yes generally it looks like bright vertical pillars and you get localized storms which generally dont look more than menacing and just drop lots of rain on the state and maby cause a few tornado watch/warnings here and there. but u get the section thats driven by the jet stream and all bets are off... this happens in minuets not hours when the storm breaks

but dont take my word for it your a NA in japan even go down to the terminals and ask the captian's about the chicago run.
what pushed wingnuts over was concentrated within a couple sq miles at most and to anyone outside that area it was just another squall.
IM

same thing for wave action etc all the worst effects were concentrated in a very small area.