Yacht Design School?

Regarding the 2010 Aluminum Design Manual, here is the vendor's brief description of the content:

"The 2010 Aluminum Design Manual is the essential tool for all professionals who work with aluminum structures. This comprehensive resource provides the latest information for the structural design of aluminum components and structures, including buildings, automobiles, trucks, rail cars, ships, tanks, pressure vessels, pipe, light poles, sign structures, bridges, scaffolding, and machinery.

The 2010 edition includes revised sections on safety and resistance factors, design for stability and combined stresses, shear yield strengths, shear strength of tubes, axial compressive strength of complex cross sections, fatigue strength of light pole bases, local buckling strength of welded elements, design for fire conditions, and design of braces."

source: http://www.aluminum.org/AM/Template...&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=29684

Here is some information on rolling aluminum, both hot and cold.

http://www.aluminum.org/Content/Nav...g_Aluminum_From_The_Mine_Through_The_Mill.pdf

alanrockwood said:

However, I have a question that leads to a comment. Are the aluminum plates and other shapes used in boat building manufactured by a cold rolled process?

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It depends upon the temper and grade of alloy...and is realy the subject of a thread all of its own, not this one on yacht design schools.

Westlawn / MacNaughton

Long time lurker here feeling compelled to respond to the original topic.

I have been enrolled in the MacNaughton CAD course since 2005 with no prior CAD or drafting experience. After precisely 3 lessons, I took a hiatus from the course and used the knowledge gained to accomplish the CAD renderings you see on my website here,... CAD Page.

Being both an Aviator as well as a Mariner and looking at the possibility of an independent portfolio of design offerings for both disciplines post retirement (in 9 years time), I have recently restarted my marine studies. As such I have picked up where I left off with MacNaughton as opposed to Westlawn for the following reasons in order of priority.

1) I have no interest or need in learning mechanical drafting skills.
2) I wish to learn vessel design as opposed to qualifying for a job.
3) I do not wish to be time limited (In any manner)

I find it interesting (from my perspective) that the primary motivator for most of the previous discussions, would appear to be the last word in reason # 2 as opposed to the 8th word in reason # 1. The curriculum in the MacNaughton courses is quite comprehensive as is of course, Westlawn.

However, the differences in approach as opposed to cost is what in my opinion and for my purposes, makes all of the difference.

In my view, each choice of education is wholly dependent upon the individual as to it's value.

Best regards

Joe

dgerr said:

Mike,
Thanks for your offer to help and your input. I have to say again that you're mistaken about the course content. Almost all the topics you specifically mention have been included in the curriculum for decades. I added the few that weren't since I took over the school.

If you'd like a look at just one of the reference texts used, it is "Aluminum Design Manual 2010," by The Aluminum Association.

Of course, all curriculums benefit from continual improvement. We've made immense additions and updates to all aspects of the program and will continue to do so. In fact, a large update is underway with new texts on structural design fundamentals, composite structures, and aluminum structures in the works. It's my hope that they will be the best references specifically on boat structures available.

Dave Gerr, Director
Westlawn Institute of Marine Technology
www.westlawn.edu

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Hi Dave
A couple of genuine questions (I am definitely not wanting to start any new ramblings from anyone in this thread for or against Westlawn or any other learning institution) feel free to PM me advice regarding the questions.

1) When would you expect the large update mentioned to be introduced to the courses offered?

2) Would a prospective student be best to wait for these to be introduced or would they be rolled into the course with no disadvantage to the student as he or she work through the courses?

JMHO, perhaps one key point over looked in this thread is the fact there are great trades people/professionals and not so great ones in every field of expertise known to man following formal study and graduation/further experience. Naval Architecture just as the practising engineering fields has their great and not so great professionals who practise/trade after graduation and further experience , just as I'm sure Westlawn or any other learning institution would have.

I personally know of several Westlawn graduates in New Zealand and Australia and a couple of other locations that would definitely come under the great or successful category as to if they are a one stop shop or work with a contracted team behind them, I wouldn't know however they have achieved success in their chosen field from the basis of their education through Westlawn.

I know of and work/contract with Global Practising Engineers/Naval Architects from well known Universities who are great. I also know of a couple who are in the not so great category one in particular whom designed a line of jet propelled Boats for a Tourist Company, they were such a disaster the NA and client Company ended up in court and it nearly ruined the Company the Naval Architect was a silent part owner of who built the Boats.

There are always variables, we are only human after all.
Many thanks in advance Dave
Regards
Craig
NZ

JAP,

How do you like the MacNaughton YDS school? To me it looks interesting, but I am a little cautious because no one has completed the course yet.

alanrockwood said:

JAP,

How do you like the MacNaughton YDS school? To me it looks interesting, but I am a little cautious because no one has completed the course yet.

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Alan?

I like it just fine as it is quite comprehensive, the lesson plans well thought out and written, and the entire program suits my purposes and time-line quite well.

As for the completion rate for either program, I will concede to what Dave Gerr at Westlawn has said regarding this being a "misleading" statistic. Individuals may find themselves having gleaned what was needed somewhere "South" of program completion.

As I had eluded to in my post, I find myself in the position of pursuing this not as a vocation, but from a creative and pure "interest" standpoint. Westlawn can offer what is known in sales as "Brand Recognition" whereas the YDS brand is contingent upon it's founder and the passage of time.

I would suspect that brand recognition within the industry would be the reason why Westlawn would be inflexible regarding an "opt out" option for mechanical drafting in favor of an all CAD format as can be done at YDS. This flexibility on the part of YDS leads me to believe that the YDS program is more "individual" friendly as opposed to "industry" friendly, and my interactions with it's founder do in fact confirm this to my mind.

Regards

Joe

Joe,

That is encouraging.

Two things I find appealing are that fees are structured in small bites, and as you mentioned, an all CAD format is available .

By the way, did you take the Rhino course MacNaughton offers? If so, do you recommend it?

alanrockwood said:

Joe,

By the way, did you take the Rhino course MacNaughton offers? If so, do you recommend it?

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Alan,

Yes I do recommend the MacNaughton CAD course.

I did in fact mention in my original post that I had completed the first 3 lessons of the CAD course when I stopped to continue pursuing another interest as you see in the image above from my website (a personal hobby non-commercial interest). This was after the 3rd and having started the 4th prior to suspending that effort until now.

I find myself unable to pursue the Sopwith replica at this time due to logistical reasons (impractical for a working / family man at this juncture), but I do have time on my hands to complete a yacht design program prior to retirement in 9 years time.

Since in the interim it would appear that I have inadvertently learned practical web design (quite by accident), it would also appear that life is leading me on paths I had never expected.

I am encouraged and excited about the prospect of learning what is required to produce viable designs of vessels and or aircraft that are of interest to me as opposed to being mandated by someone else. Much like a hobby artist that paints a landscape or subject of his/her choosing, then offers it up for sale to whomever else may like it.

I suspect some very fine vessels have come to life in just this way.


Joe

Alan and Joe,

I have included some job openings for NA's from a program like University of Michigan NA program.

If you look at the U of M course listing for NA, and the requirements for the jobs, you will see the requirement for CAD, 2D and 3D.

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Think about the following and let me know your thoughts.

I have been interested in a Westlawn 3D Rhino CAD track in addition to the freehand drawing, lofting and fairing, since 2009.

I know Westlawn has looked at this in the past. Dave Gerr and crew could certainly put together an excellent Rhino 3D + Freehand program that would rival any NA program. Obviously, you need a computer and Rhino to do the CAD stuff, so perhaps the answer is the option as per MacNaughton.

Well, why is CAD so important to U of M and employers for NAs?

Why then 3D CAD?

What role does 3D CAD play in the NA tasks for analysis?

Can NAs be effective in design without CAD?

How do they communicate their ideas effectively today without CAD?

In Marine today, practically speaking for vessel design and manufacture, is paper design dead?

Why doesn't a University like U of M for NA have more small craft freehand drawing, lofting, and fairing?

These are all good questions.

You can find out a lot by asking basic questions like this in relation to the evolving nature of vessel design.

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Let me preface the following with this question:

Does lofting and fairing a hull require attention to constant curvature surfaces?

If not for function then perhaps for aesthetics? and by extension to some extent, styling in terms of industrial design?

Is fairing a hull in many ways the same as creating a constant curvature surface to meet shape and displacement requirements?

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Lets talk about Rhino for Marine.

In short, Rhino's power lies in the use of NURBS and in a simple an inexpensive product. NURBS, in general, is reliable base technology in relation to Marine design. Rhino's Marine design power can be extended in the use of NURBS to produce C2 (Constant Curvature) surfaces.

T-Splines takes advantage of this by extending NURBS in control, such that easy manipulation of surfaces will still produce C2 surfaces as you push and pull the object like it was a ball of clay. No matter how you distort the object using controls, the surface remains C2. Really amazing.

Orca3D can be used with Rhino and T-Splines to allow creation of hulls very quickly and with manipulation that will maintain C2 surfaces.

So now we have a way to produce Marine art in a 3D CAD format, but then what do we do for final analysis and manufacture?

Not an easy question to answer?

Let me know if you would like to discuss the move from art to production.

Mark

Mark Cat said:

Does lofting and fairing a hull require attention to constant curvature surfaces? ....Is fairing a hull in many ways the same as creating a constant curvature surface to meet shape and displacement requirements?

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Fairing a hull has 2 principal objectives.

1. To create a set of curves lines that are smooth in all 3 directions. Why is this important?....hydrodynamics.

2. To create lines that are easily developable for construction.

A hull can be faired with emphasis on #1 or #2 or a combination of the two….depending upon the SOR and hence cost. Since everything is performance and cost driven.

Mark,

Those are very interesting postings and a general peek into the marine industry requirements at the professional journeyman level. All of this is far beyond the scope at which I intend to function. I'm after the guy more likely to build a Bolger brick than anything else. Those fast moving river gunboats require a level of expertise that I will never expect (nor attempt) to attain.

If I were a wee lad with an eye on that level of professional achievement indicated in those postings, here's what I would do in order of priority.

1) Focus on a B.S. in an engineering discipline such as N.A. from an accredited school with the goal of licensure as a P.E.
2) Concurrently acquire entry level experience and credentialing at the earliest possible opportunity.

Sitting on the interviewer's side of the table for that $70 million dollar contract, it doesn't take rocket science to figure out that quality of experience will hold more merit than where the education was obtained, so long as that education is a bonafide engineering program.

The requirements for yacht design are somewhat murkier as the education and experience can be attained in a less structured and more varied format. To my view what is chiefly required is the ability to convince the end user that your design meets their requirements, at which point a "sale" is made. The quality of the end product is therefore contingent on a variety of factors, some of which may or may not be the fault of the designer.

Regards

Joe