Early human marine exploration of North America and their vessels

If Cristobal Colon could do it so could have his predecessors, even with more primitive craft. Ever drive a Fiat?

 

The distance from northern Ireland to the Grand Banks of NFLD. following the edge of the ice is approx. 1000 to 1200 miles. The Grand Banks at that time were about 200ft. above sea level and apparently due to their proximity of the much deminished gulf stream were not covered in ice. If they used animal power (dog sled ?) this was just a 10 to 12 day trip. If they layed out food depos much as our northern peoples do and pole explorers did, even at 10 miles a day ave. it's a 3 to 4 month trip. This is by no means an overly difficult trip even by todays man who is physically much weaker. If there was no ice to travel on, island hopping via. Iceland, Greenland, to north america again is quite feasible with the longest leg around 700miles, a 6 to 10 day trip with prevaling winds. One item we are forgetting here is land masses that might have since dissappeared. Atlantis? Isle Brazil ? Fabled Lands that could have actually existed to make the trek much, much, easier.Why would they attempt it? Could be anything from banishment (Viking Greenland settlement) to wonderlust. I never underestimate the abilities and co- operation of early man. Compared to some early achievements this migration is a mere walk in the park.

 

Aharon,

At my initiation, I was taught to be cautious, so any claims made to have precisely located Sodom or Gommorah, I would take "with a pinch of salt".

OTOH, the majority belief about the location of KST has blighted peace hopes for years & if it were to be accepted that only its most northern section rested on the south edge of the Haram, who knows what progress may result?

http://www.biblemysteries.com/lectures/problems.htm

http://www.biblemysteries.com/lectures/builtwailingwall.htm


P

 

Frozen N, Atlantic

The sea ice and the glaciers did not stop at the narrowest part of the Atlantic.

On the west glaciation extended south to cover Long Island, NY. The first ground not covered is New Jersey. Maybe Mt. Washington, NH, wasn't covered.

On the east glaciation extended south of France and included the Pyrennes. But perhaps not Bayonne, France.

So the trek is from Bayonne to Bayonne and includes the segment you discuss. If the sea ice extended more southerly, the trek would be shorter.

You are right. It's reasonable that food caches were used. Would there be sufficient hunting on the ice or would they neeed to be brought from farm or forest in Bayonne?

This is where I begin to doubt the feasibility of walking across the frozen Atlantic Ocean. The effort to feed the travellers rises exponentially with distance if not obtainable locally. I don't see the top of sea ice as a fertile hunting ground capable of supporting a village, even a small one. Not even the team provisioning the caches; they'd have to carry their own provisions, caching for the return trip as they are outward bound.

What have I missed that will change my view?

LMo

PS. I reread vikingnorth and he already stated what I missed, The Grand Banks. A great stopping place for generations before a rising sea forced them to move again onto land no longer covered with ice.

 

Mainstay,

Inuit and others live in frozen wastelands.

http://planet.uwc.ac.za/nisl/Conservation Biology/Karen PDF/Clovis/Bradley & Stanford 2004.pdf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/columbustrans.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_theory

 

Perhaps, to the Inuit, Florida is a semi-tropical wasteland and Arizona is an arid wasteland.

 

Hoyt,

True! No whales or seals in either of those places, but manatee would serve in Florida.

 

North Atlantic Ice Trek

Pericles
The land of the Inuit is not a frozen wasteland. It is so fertile, that there are times of the year it teems with life. Other times it freezes hard, and hibernation and migration are used to avoid this; or seed or egg formats are used to endure it. Fortunately, the hard times are becoming shorter, and the teeming times longer.

A better analogy is crossing the Ross Ice Shelf. There is no life above bacterial on the shelf. Marine life is abundant when a school, pod, herd, or other animal group swims by. There is a vertical face to overcome to harvest the marine life. If travel is by water, a boat that stays waterproof for 3 to 12 months is desirable. There is the danger of calving for travelers above and below. For travelers above, there is the additional danger that the calving may occur dozens of miles (or days of travel) from the shelf face, trapping them on an ever decreasing iceberg. If travelers find a major crevasse that runs back from the face, which side will become the iceberg?

Of course, the Atlantic ice may be more like our current Arctic ice, particularly at its southern margin: full of pressure ridges and shifting ice slabs with their surface close enough to the water to fish or hunt the marine animals. Would the number of animals be more abundant or less than then current margin in the Arctic Ocean?

Such a journey would take preparation and certainty. They could make the trek if they knew there was a place to go to and where it was. But without such knowledge, to be cast out, to be driven onto the ice, where old men and women go to die, is a death sentence, and they know it. Why strive in any particular direction, why make a heroic effort to find certain death? Why not stay here and let death do all the work to find us? OR why not go to the Berkshires; there's a nice hot spring and the summers are snow-free? Off most would go, trekking to the mountains. Or with different knowledge, attempting the arduous trek to The Grand Banks without preparations.

But what if the adventurers were second and third sons and daughters with nothing to stay for, and with the fond farewells and good riddance from the eldest sons, who give them a year's supply of goods, fuel and pack animals to go die on the ice floes in such a foolish quest? A departure after harvest may give them an eight month travel window before spring planting in the new place. And later retiring to Windover, Florida 6,000 years ago.
LMo

 

Vikingnorth

Did Iberians have adequate boats during the ice age? Or before? Are there any depictions of their boats? Otherwise, the Siberians who had bluewater sailboats, are the undisputed earliest (16-14,000 years ago) mariners capable of exploring North America. And with every reason to follow the pods to the west coast of North America, were most probably the earliest marine explorers in the Americas, by 1000s of years.
LMo

 

Further research and testing old theories will eventually reveal the truth but unresolved questions that have recently risen regarding DNA, along with the origion of the clovis point and non siberian skull shapes plus some contradicitions on the old settling time theory certianly have rocked the boat. Where in the recent past such theories as a possible Atlantic crossing would be laughed at, today it is more accepted as a possibility and within certain scientific circles now a proven fact.

 

Vikingnorth
I laughed at the Atlantic Ice crossing theory when I first heard it. Absurd! Impossible!

But as the discussion progressed. I became convinced that it was possible. Arduous! Perilous! Donner-isk! But, eat-the-slowest-pack-animal-as-the-supplies-diminish possible.

But, I still hold the opinion that Iberians did not have adequate boats to make the migration by water during the ice age or before. Will someone please present any evidence otherwise?

I'm willing to accept that Neanderthal's had superior boatbuilding skills, if supported by scientific evidence and not conjecture. I already accept that vikings travelled the North American interior. They may have traded Windover Village, and may be the source for the Aztec myth of bearded white men sailing from the sunrise.

But not ice age Iberian bluewater craft. Not yet.
LMo

 

The DNA-Skull shapes-Clovis point clues force a closer look at the possibilities, filling in the gaps of how, might require just plain logic of what was available to them at the time. Animal power--yes, Marine craft --why not, they travelled--hunted --and lived near bodies of water. A simple dog powered sled hauling a survival packed skin boat that could be easily launched for fishing/hunting and inverted at night time for shelter is certainly not beyond the life style of peoples 15,000 to 20,000 yrs. ago. I'm not saying this all occured but if the theory becomes proven accepted fact (seems the route it is taking) then the "how" will play a bigger role. I think one of the biggest hurdles facing the theory might not be proofs but the politics of rocking todays first peoples boat and all the perks and political side steping associated with it.

 

Vikingnorth,
I like it. Dog teams, skin boats, skilled men, hardy women, and Arctic-like Ice; a combination that is entirely possible. And one that in my opinion is a likely societal orginazation back then. The trans-Atlantic trek could be made without seagoing boats, but with trailerable craft. I am seeing a higher possibility for such a trek. And since it appears possible that the trek could be made in a season, two-way traffic is possible to trade or visit or other reason.
It would be like the US Oregon Trail in the late 19th century.

Some engineer said that the paved highways of North America follow the preColumbian trails. So for physical proof positive of this trail across the ice, all we need is a deep submersible to search the ocean bottom for remnants of that ribbon of concrete or asphalt they used to pave the trail across the ice.
LMo

 

I doubt that Neanderthals could have done it. Cro-Magnon, maybe. Homo Sapiens Sapiens, definitely.

 

I have been away for a while, and have partially caught up. If I remember the conversation before, tIt was noted the tool making of the Clovis people was very similar to tools being made in Iberia at about the same time. It was also noted that sculls of the Clovis were more European than Asian. I guess the DNA reflects that as well.

I would strongly doubt these folk crossed the ice bridge from Europe as a journey 10 mile per day. I would accept there might have been a migration, generations, possibly centuries, living along the ice edge, following fish and sea mammal migrations.
It took about 500 years for the present day Inuit to migrate across the arctic from northern Alaska to Greenland. The Dorcet who were already there were displaced. The Norse experienced the Dorset people. Apparently there was some isolated communities until the beginning of the 20th century.
Certainly we can only speculate how Europeans arrived in the Americas thousands of years ago. There is no evidence other than the mere presence in the Americas of these people.