MV Phoenix - Electric Lobsterboat

Discussion in 'Propulsion' started by lockhughes, Apr 2, 2005.

  1. lockhughes
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 110
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    Location: Wards Island Toronto north shore, Lake Ontario

    lockhughes ElectricGuy

    G'Day all!

    Man, it's been a while since I was alongside the good ship boatdesign.net for a gam.

    Basically had woman trouble... of the nicest kind, but I finally had to toss her over the side, and picked up a lobster boat instead.

    Some of the crew here may recall this thread about Solomon Tech's eWheel (electric motor for marine propulsion):
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=676

    Basically, I started checking out electric vessels `cause I was ANGRY at my sailing club. They operate a private tender for member and guests, as a shuttle service across one mile of sheltered harbour, seasonal service, 6kt speed limit. Perfect for a battery electric vessel.

    The old boat was on her last legs, and had to be replaced. The Club went with a Caterpillar diseasal engine for the new boat. If all goes well, she will ply our waters for the next 50yrs, burning over 50,000L of diesel fuel across one of Canada's busiest and most polluted harbours...

    I collected my research as a yahoo group, here:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/

    I've been a recreational sailor most of my life. Dinghies, without electrics or power aboard, and I know nothing about engines... or electric motors.

    As part of my learning process, I went out and bought myself an electric vehicle. I didn't have the budget to buy an electric *vessel*, but a little electric scooter was within budget and has many of the same components - motor and battery and charger and controller.

    I quickly found out that in my country, my little electric vehicle is not legal (yet). Regardless, I've since driven the scooter several thousand km around my city in commutes and play. It's been an amazing experience. And now I am "fighting city hall" - literally - for acceptance of my battery electric vehicle, and the tender project has been "back-burnered".

    Anyway... back to boats.

    Last fall, I stumbled aboard a lobsterboat. I *never* thought I would find myself saying this, but I am now the proud owner of the MV Phoenix, a 32-foot wooden lobsterboat designed by the Lowell Brothers of Maine (it turns out the Lowells are something like royalty in the lobsterboat world.)

    This is the only pic of her that I have so far (as sent to me by her prev.owner when he put the boat up for sale last year):
    [​IMG]

    I have loved the Phoenix (her classic east coast lines) from afar for many years, and had told her prev. owner more than once that if he ever wanted to sell her...

    I expect to keep her in the Toronto Islands as a liveaboard.

    The only "problem" is, the Phoenix comes with a MerCruiser 260HP gas inboard engine. Because of her shallow draft, this hunk of iron sticks up through the sole of the main cabin as a huge "coffee table" that leaves very little room to maneuvour around when moving fore and aft.

    I certainly don't need this sort of power onboard. The Phoenix will be tied up at her dock most of the time, and only need to cruise around the harbour on short excursions in fair weather...

    And I will be damned if I ever find myself driving around such an engine.

    So the engine and gas tanks are to be pulled and sold off. Instead, she will have battery banks and an electric motor for propulsion.

    It just seems so fitting that a boat named the Phoenix will be reborn as a battery-electric vessel.

    So, if anyone needs a gas inboard engine? ... I posted a For Sale message here:
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7085

    While I would like to make the leap to lithium for her battery banks (see what Valence has commercialized here http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp , for example), I expect my first bat banks will be flooded golf cart batteries, favoured by the electric vehicle folks because of high bang for the buck, and a tech that is well known and understood.

    A little history about electric boats:
    Russia, 1834: German physicist Moritz Hermann Jacobi presents a paper to the St. Petersburg Academy of Sciences about electromagnetism as applied to machines. Four years later Tsar Nicholas I grants Jacobi enough money to design and build an electric motor to be fitted to a ten-oared shallop.

    In the world of battery electrics (vehicles) the largest and most amazing online community is the Electric Vehicle Discussion List (EVDL). It averages perhaps 30 mgs a day, with gusts to 40-50.

    The breadth and depth of the knowledge and experience there is amazing.

    Here is a recent post from the EVDL:
    From: "Myles Twete" <matwete@comcast.net>
    To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
    Subject: RE: article: A whole new boating category begins – electric boats
    Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:18:35 -0800

    James Eckman suggested:
    > Anyone interested in electric boating/conversion can go to Minnkota.
    > com and look at remote controlled motor E44 and E54 or Power
    > Drive Bow-Mount Pontoon Boat Motor.

    Ah, but this is the world renowned EV LIST---why settle for the
    hum-drum from the boating world's Detroit when you can make your own higher performance electric cheaper?

    First, check out the E-boat conversions at
    http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/boats.html
    My 6HP 36v electric conversion:
    http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492.html

    Next, if you're interested in going electric on the water, check out
    the electric boat yahoo lists:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ElectricBoating/

    I currently moderate both these discussion groups.
    The ElectricBoats list now has over 800 members and is very active, with lots of sailboat owners converting to electric---and the MinnKota products just don't cut it for owners of 4000#+ craft who want to do hull speed.

    Many of our members run with 36 and 48v systems and have been using ETEK, 6.75"ADC, Lynch and other motors for propulsion. We've converted old 10-25HP outboards (as mine is---8HP ETEK) and have a growing number of inboard conversions underway and complete.

    Thanks for the info on Johnson's cute foray into electric boating...but it's not Johnson Controls.

    -Myles Twete
    [end of EVDL quote]


    So, that's all. Just a hullo to all. Nice to be aboard, hope all are well, and if you are fed up with the price of gas and diesel, just be advised, that for many boaters, there is an alternative

    Cheers

    Lock Hughes
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. mackid068
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    mackid068 Semi-Newbie Posts Often

    Just wondering, what's the conversion for lbs of thrust to horsepower? Also, is electric power really all that clean, as you're still using power from, most likely, a coal, gas or oil powerplant (atleast in much of the US). Finally, is electric power quiet? Sorry for all the questions.
     
  3. lockhughes
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    Location: Wards Island Toronto north shore, Lake Ontario

    lockhughes ElectricGuy

    Hiya Mackid... Don't apologize for asking questions! I appreciate all comments/questions/whatever! I'm an accountant ferchrissake, not an EE, and I am still trying to understand all this stuff myself. So any msgs are good exercise for me.

    Like... thrust and horsepower...

    I know that ICE (infernal combustion engines) have these hilly torque curves, with transmissions so the operator can jump from peak to peak through the gears... Electric motors have pretty much full torque at zero rpms - their torque "curves" look almost flat. So many electric have no transmissions - or perhaps just a single fixed reduction gear/belt/chain...

    I know that the modern ICE machines are pretty inefficient. Most of the energy they burn is wasted as heat and vibration/noise. They struggle to attain efficiencies of 25-35%... depends on how far back you go from the prop... ultimately you can take these comparisons all the way back to the well.

    The cheapest modern electric motors easily start at >80% efficient, and the state-of-the-art obtain >95% efficient. This drops off through the chargers and power controllers and batteries and wiring, but the overall system can run perhaps 50% efficient. Think engine compartments that don't get stinkin' hot in operation...

    You can factor in other things too... like, electrics don't idle, and you don't need to warm them up. The motors themselves love cold temps.

    Modern electric motors can be brushless, with high powered rare-earth permanent magnets (without brushes and commutators, they are spin by power electronics.) This means that the motor only has one moving part.

    A preventative maintenance program on the motor would go something like this: Every 100,000 hrs, replace the two bearings.

    Compare this with the exploding reciprocating engine, with hundred of parts all busy wearing out. Filters, spark plugs, lube oils, etc etc... They have to struggle to convert recirocating motion to rotary (at the prop.)

    It turns out a typical marine ICE only delivers a fraction of it's rated HP to the prop (eg 25HP becomes only maybe 5hp at the prop if 20% efficient) It's common to see electric propulsion systems that seem "dinky" in power by comparison, so in this example the electric motor might be rated at just 4kw continuous - one HP = 746watts.)

    On shore, my scooter runs on a motor rated at 400 watts (about 1/2hp.)

    This is a lot less powerful than any home coffee maker or hair dryer. Yet the little scooter has a top speed of about 20mph.

    How "clean" are electrics? Well, as you say, they might be running on nuclear or coal... But at least there are *options*. Batteries don't care where the energy comes from. At least, it comes with zero fuel additives and you don't get "dirty fuel" from a bad fuel dock to screw up your filters or engine.

    Central power generation and distribution is more efficient than distributing energy as a liquid fuel. And in the future these sources will just get cleaner and cleaner.

    Imagine mooring for the night in a tidal flow or river current, with your big prop freewheeling in the flow and the motor spinning as a generator to recharge the battery packs. How clean is that?

    How `bout a hybrid with a genset running off propane? Whether shore power, or roll-yer-own, electrics don't drip hydrocarbons into the water (think oily gas docks and oily bilges.)

    What electrics do put out is lead, as batteries that have seen the end of their useful lives. But the lead and the casing and the acid are all 100% recyclable. This is like saying that you have captured all the exhaust output of an ICE engine in a box that you take ashore to recycle, rather than blowing it out your transom everywhere you motor.

    The problems of lead in the environment are well know, but any lead escaping the recycling/re-manufacturing cycle are the fault of the bad guys - the good guys can avoid this 100%. With ICE machines, you have no choice.

    Newer battery chemistrys like lithium ion are now being commercialized in larger formats suitable for traction, and lithium is much more benign if it escapes into our environment.

    At the same time, the new chemistries are raising energy and power densities for battery energy storage also. And getting many more recharge cycles out of the batteries before they tire and must be replaced.

    With electrics, it's *all* about the care and feeding of the battery pack.

    Everyone needs to love their batterys better! You need to spend the bucks on high quality chargers and battery management systems and maybe some time, to protect your investment in the battery pack.

    And yeah, electric can be almost totally quiet. Listen to the next mobility scooter that passes you on the sidewalk.

    I have watched videos of folks racing electric cars around oval tracks, with the drivers talking to each other as they race (no engine noise to have to yell over...)

    Cheers

    Lock
     
  4. mackid068
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    mackid068 Semi-Newbie Posts Often

    Very nice. Thanks.
     
  5. RWL
    Joined: Mar 2005
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    Location: Denver, Colorado

    RWL Junior Member

    You are probably aware that Vetus, that company that makes bow thrusters has a production electric drive replacement for diesel inboards, and has designed it so you can also put a small diesel inline with the electric motor, so when the diesel is working it charges the batteries using the motor, now turned generator. I had a student last semester looking at a fuel cell driven electric catamaran for local water board inspections of resevoirs. They wanted to get the ICE boats off the water, but looked silly driving the same things on the resevoirs themselves. He suggested a hydrogen powered fuel cell powering a pair of Vetus drives, in a catamaran.

    I am working on a design of a small cruiser for the Pacific northwest, and came to the same conclusion you did, that the large ICE takes a huge chunk of prime real estate in smaller boats, especially when cruising at displacement speeds. I also hate the smell of diesel. I plan on using a small 4 stroke Yamaha as primary propulsion, and a pair of electric fishing motors as my backup. My study shows that with the battery bank I plan on having I can run at 3 to 4 knots for 15 to 20 hours on the electric, which is more than adequate for me to find a place to drop the hook and figure out what is wrong with the 4 stroke. I thought of going all electric, via fuel cell, but was talked out of it for the next ten years by an engineer at Ballard Fuel cells. For where I want to wander, he didn't think the infrastructure was there for some time yet. Good to hear you are fighting the good fight.

    RWL (displaced Canuck)
     
  6. woodboat
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Baltimore MD, USA

    woodboat Senior Member

    Better you than me :) On first impression it seems that this will cost you a lot of money and make the resale of the boat nearly impossible, at least in my area. There is no way I would pay $3000 for a used small block Chevy, they are under $1000 around here. What do you plan to spend on the batteries and expensive chargers? What is the cost of the Vetus electric plant? SO following your links do you expect to spend about $3000 for the conversion? How much fuel is burned up producing these parts? How much would you use annually if you ran the current setup? Also from a purely green standpoint you are selling the gas engine to someone else for them to use and pollute. So are you helping the environment? One would think you should destroy that engine in favor of the electric if your motivation is green. I can't help thinking about the vegan that ate hotdogs because it was made from parts the animal didn't need to live, I swear I am not making that up. The quiet part is sweet as well as recovered deck space so that would be nice. If you were building new than these things wouldn't be an issue but you have a good powerplant so one must consider if it is cheaper and cleaner to keep what you have if it is working properly VS converting.
     
  7. PowerTech
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    Location: FL,Keys

    PowerTech Senior Member

    that vetus hybred diesel electric proplsion unit is the hot ticket for that boat.them doun easter's take a huge amount of power to get up on over the hill and run fast because they are almost or are dissplacement hulls.but a little motor will put put them around fine.with the vetus system you would have your electric drive club status and still have a boat you could realy do something in or some one else might want some day .It is a tiny little sailboat motor you could hide with a very small cabbinet or it might just fit under the deck.Vetus is a little weird but it sounds to me like weird is what you are looking for.I personaly would hate having all of them god damn batterys cooking away sitting there on the sea wall most of the year for nothing them things ain't cheap.I will post a price on that thing tomorrow just for hell of it.
     
  8. woodboat
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    Location: Baltimore MD, USA

    woodboat Senior Member

  9. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    A modern diesel for a SHIP is just over 50% efficent , and can burn more than one fuel.

    And only costs what any diesel that size costs.

    FAST FRED
     
  10. PowerTech
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    PowerTech Senior Member

    Fast fred I think I know quite a bit about diesel boats.And yet I have know idea what that post of yours means at all.I am not disputing whatever information is there.I would just like to know what is there? :confused: The vetus diesel M2.06that goes in front of that electric motor is 7000$ list It's A 16 HP .A Weterbeke B20 would do the same job and have 18 HP at the same RPM and at a thousand dollars cheaper yet.These prices are very negotiable with your local dealer .you might could get them doun a 1000$ from that.If you were going to have them do the instal and or buy the batterys from them and hardware the discounts get real good.If you were to go this rout I would strongly recomend the westerbeke for propulsion. It is the exact same Mitsubichi 2 cylinder engine with a nicer marinazation package.Westerbekes marinization are very simple and reliable there in nothing to them and very common parts instock in america forever.More power and cheaper you can't beat that.The vetus marinization to me looks very ugly to me like new or late model perkins is ugly by ugly I meen busy looking.thats all :idea:
     
  11. FAST FRED
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    My piont was that 50% efficency is already on the shelf with great reliability and NO experimentation.

    The folks that "love" electric probably have never been offshore for weeks at a time , with ONLY their own skills to get them home.

    Agreed some marinizers do a far better job than others ,
    on the same light duty high speed engines.
    Caviat Emptor , as always.

    FAST FRED
     
  12. mattotoole
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    mattotoole Senior Member

    This is true, but who says electric boats require experimentation? Thousands of Duffies have been cruising around for 35 years. No motorized boat in existence is more reliable, or requires less maintenance. I'd say that's proven technology.

    Horses for courses, fercryinoutloud! lockhughes said he wants more space in his lake-bound liveaboard, and that he does not plan to ever use the kind of power the boat currently has. So I imagine it's a bay cruiser -- what most recreational boaters really need. Cruising around at modest speeds for a few hours at a time is what electric boats do better than anything else.

    l sympathize with his views on the yacht club shore boat -- electric is the only way to go for this application. I've heard many woeful tales about shore boat maintenance problems, especially transmissions abused by kids hired for the summer. This kind of problem does not exist with an electric boat.
     
  13. mackid068
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    mackid068 Semi-Newbie Posts Often

    Bah. Electric is nice, but I would say diesel is good for abuse and offshore. Electric? Seems good for inshore. I like it for certain purposes. Hybrid, anyone? (diesel inboard/electric generator=:))
     
  14. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    There has been some debate here about 'efficiency'. To clear things up, it would be nice if everyone could be a little more specific. Are you talking actual thermodynamic efficiency; that is, shaft power relative to enthalpy change from reactants to products? This is how engine efficiency is usually defined, and in this sense the average marine gas engine is 25%, the average car gas engine 25-30%, and the average marine diesel perhaps 30-35%. The only IC engines that approach 50% are the massive, 10,000-litre-plus diesels found in large ships. (Example: To get 5 kJ of energy out of a boat gas engine, you actually liberate 20kJ from the fuel, the rest is released as heat.) In an electric, efficiency is usually taken to be shaft power relative to the power usage (V x I) across the motor terminals. For a complete electric system this can easily be propagated across all system components; the best systems (like those used in solar cars) run around 90% range on controller, wiring and motor combined.

    On maintenance: The brushless DC motors we use in the solar cars are finicky, much like race-bred combustion engines. They blow resistors, they have to be regapped periodically, they overheat..... Their commercial counterparts, though, are incredibly low maintenance. As mentioned earlier in this thread, about the only servicing ever needed on a good modern electric is to check and replace a couple of bearings now and then.

    Fuel cells: The infrastructure's not quite in place yet, but a mid-size to large cruiser is just about a perfect platform for fuel cells. Enough space for the cells and tanks, constant load with no need for quick changes in load, the regular engine's expensive enough that the cost isn't as big a factor.

    Hybrid: Hmm.... I think Kvaerner had a RoRo freighter concept set up like this a few years back, had a pair of GE turbines spinning generators up front and electrics on the propshafts. Gave the boat a sweet cargo-deck layout. But I wonder if the loss in efficiency is really worth it- the advantage of a hybrid car is regeneration in stop-and-go traffic, which doesn't apply to boats. And the best fuel efficiency in a production passenger car is the straight-diesel Audi A2 (2.7L/100km) Perhaps direct-injection diesels like they're putting in cars now that fuel is cleaner? And that can burn biodiesel?
     

  15. mackid068
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    mackid068 Semi-Newbie Posts Often

    Diesel-electric is what's on cruise ships.
     
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