Small blue water boat?

My Discrete (RYD-14.11) and her bigger sister (RYD-16.10) can get to windward in a gale, both comfortably so.

 

Here are a couple of very seaworthy and comfortable 28 footers, maybe larger than what's being discussed, but a nice size for a "small" boat. Old style and traditional, they go to windward in a breeze and keep you fairly unruffled in the process. MARIE MICHON, the cutter, was built in the early 20s and was known to be fast and weatherly and made long trips in the north without an engine. Ruell Parker's Swansea Pilot Schooner is based on a historic type that sailed very well and this design is very quick and easy in build. I saw two of these last being fitted out in Key West, 90 days after laying the keels.

 

Two to five times the displacement is more then "maybe larger then what's being discussed". The pilot cutter lines are similar to the approach I've used in Discrete, though I've increased her comparative beam and particularly her power aft, not to mention a rudder plan form that's more efficient. Those lines remind me of the British "cranks" that came over to win the "cup" just to get to look at the American's transom most of the way around the courses. They eventually, got off the deep, narrow, channel cutter marriage they loved so much, possibly because they were constantly beaten by the upstart "new world" yanks, once they figured out how much wetted surface they had to drag along with their previous concepts. In this vain, it's important to recognize these "antique" craft, sail like antiques and have all the nasty attributes that many "if it looks right, it is right" engineering jobs display. This mentality worked fine, right up to the point real engineers started to play the game and very quickly showed the difference between belief and good engineering. Nat Herreshoff wasn't so much a brilliant yacht designer then a very skilled engineer. With calculations in hand, he was able to improve strength to weight by huge margins and of course being the very good sailor too, innovate he way through the best of the "looks good, must be good" crowd, usually quite handily.

 

Cutter is 1924 MARIE MICHON by Bevil Warrington-Smythe. Displacement given as 7 tons. Was sailed 136 miles Helford to Poole Bar in 24:10 and many other passages at a similar rate, pretty good for 25'8" LWL. Made long passage to Mariehamm, no engine. She is based on the fishing boats of SW England more than the "cutter crank" plank on edge extreme racers, at least her owner R.H. Swann claimed so. She's workboat, not yacht in ancestry.
Ruell's Swansea Pilot schooner is 3/4" lapstrake ply plank covered in Xynole (sp?) cloth with epoxy, few frames, integral structural cabin furniture etc pretty modern and not too heavy. Very cheap per ton for moderately good performance and seakindly. Originally these were 1/2 decked boats and sailed very hard competing against other pilots for a job.
Just good cheap boats, both of them. The sea hasn't changed and these two represent a lighter yachty version of extremely seaworthy and proven types. Doesn't mean they're any better than new boats, they're not, just very good boat designs that were the end product of many thousands of years of "try something better". This is not scientific, but it works. What didn't work at sea sometimes killed the user, and always will.
I've seen my share of nasty weather and I would trust these two in most of it.

 

He is looking for 18'- 20' for extended cruising . With 2 people at supplies the the weight would be maybe 1400lb, might want about of 4000 lb disp. , still light . Stretch to 24 '
might be possible.


As Hess falmouth cutter would be the ticket .

 

A big dory like BADGER maybe?

 

A budget would be the place to start. How much to build? How much to maintain? How much to voyage? Why? Why not buy an existing boat all fitted out?
My first real design in 1972 was a modified St Pierre dory for liveaboard cruising when I worked at Mystic Seaport. I showed the drawings to John Gardner (The Dory Book, Building Classic Small Craft etc), who was just setting up the small boat workshop at the time, and he liked it, but said my frame spacing was too great, fastening schedule wrong, planking too thin and other things too. It was never built.
I still think the big dory approach for light, seaworthy, very cost-effective, good-sailing boats works well enough for most conditions. They also pack well and gain great stability from weight aboard if you keep it low.
The most famous is probably Slocum's LIBERDADE, built on the beach, sailed by him, wife and kids from Brazil to US after a shipwreck. He used heavy ironwood for bottom planking and light cedar for topsides and a junk rig, clever fellow.
Jay Benford's design BADGER, sailed by the Hills to the Falkland Islands, is another on the same idea.
I suppose at the very small size considered the dory approach doesn't work as well. Just seems like an awful small pot to put an lot of piss in.
If a sailor needs only flip-flops, shorts, brown rice and a spoon, there's enough room, but after 30 years of liveaboard and voyaging, I always seem to pick stuff up and need a place to put it, even if it's only seashells.

 

A well designed dory could be a way to go. Might be cheaper if build in a traditional manner. A set of frames with planks . It could be batten seamed . That would eliminate
working with epoxy and cost less than marine ply. A rig could be borrowed from another boat. It would be fun, but only If you wanted to build a boat.

 

The dory as everyone knows them, are not well suited deep water boats. Benfords, cruising dories are heavily modified, removing most of their "ill" habits and manors. Most modern dories aren't actually dories, but skiffs with a lot of topside flare.

 

I agree. Fishing dories as such are usually highly specialized open craft for handlining cod and are horrible things unballasted.
The cruising designs are wholly new boats, big flat bottom flare sided skiffs with outside ballast basically.

 

Bingo Bataan, and that's only the beginning of the "changes" necessary for the dory as a deep water craft.

 

I would point out that the Grand Banks are deep water and Farley Mowat in "Grey Seas Under" claimed that there was nothing in the world more seaworthy than a Newfoundlander in a dory.
Doesn't make them a suitable cruising or voyaging vessel, but one alternative place to start a design concept, like Benford did. Under 20' it doesn't work.

 

The dory form appears many places , there are some Dutch boats with flat bottoms that are internally ballasted . They tend to have greater rocker and more flair , so there are many ways to make this simple form work . Overcoming the lack of stability is one of the problems .

In a boat under 20' a Bolger box sharpie could work , but not for two, IMO

 

This is a simple dory skiff with a transom .If it is not a Benford design , then it is a good copy .
Anyway does not get much simpler .

 

Ahoy,

I'm amazed no one has offered up Bruce Bingham's Flicka 20 as the perfect blue water 20 footer. I have sailed one of these many miles in all sorts of conditions and for their size they are unbeatable. They can carry tons of supplies and are surprisingly fast downwind. The design is well proven with any number of Flickas sailing all over the world. Visit www.flicka20.com for more info.

Personally I'd pick the Dana at 24 feet a bit bigger than your brief. But I am biassed, I've got one! http://www.ventspleen.com/?p=514

Go small, go now!

Benjy