Commercial Fishing Sailboat

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by MickT, Nov 14, 2010.

  1. MickT
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    MickT Junior Member

    Tad- Thanks a million for your post. Definetly not a new idea, there was a guy who built his own in Port Townsend a few years ago, although he had a 3 ton hold. I never saw the Aphrodite when I fished in San Diego, so i'm pretty sure she was converted to a yacht. Is the 5000 mile range accurate?
    You're definitely right about wanting the hold(s) amidships, the plan is to have them split into 6 holds running along the keel, with the fuel/water tanks directly below them. This terrifies me from a maintenance stand point but I guess there would be room on the side for access hatches, although I will have to stay skinny. Do you think cement wash would protect them from condensation from the fish holds? (the holds will have to be extremely well insulated to hold blast freeze temperatures but still). Day tank in the engine room, which I would like as far aft as possible. 2 blast freezers, 2 plate freezers, longline reel, ice maker, some processing equipment, all planned to be on the deck...not THAT heavy, but wondering how badly all that will affect the stability/sailing characteristics. I guess there isn't going to be a shortcut from doing the math. I would like the house/upper deck to be aluminum. Trips are planned in the 60-90 day range, fish to be sold direct to buyers in a West Coast port. Fish cut into loins/steaks aboard, wrapped and blast froze at -60. 85kw probably required while fishing, 30kw when running back and 8kw/alternator when running out. Thanks for all your good replies
     
  2. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    There, I fear, comes reality into the game.

    A boat does not cost much, as long as You don´t have to pay for it.
    According to the publicly available documentations, a 60ft frp boat has annually cost of about 12% of the exyard price.

    If you can afford that, fine if not ......güle güle

    Do not ask what a given design would cost when homemade. It is always, way cheaper to buy a better boat second hand.
     
  3. MickT
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    MickT Junior Member

    I am no stranger to reality. It's not an excuse for surrender.
     
  4. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    maurice napier arbroath, scotland can design you a boat
     
  5. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Whoa ! 30 to 60 day autonomy and 5000 range. I never realized that a longliner or any small fisherman operated like this. A boat that sails reasonably well with those characteristics would be longer on the waterline than a comparable motorized fishing boat. Probably going to have to stretch you concept.

    And your idea about enlisting a young student naval architect to draw boats is a great one. Efficiency..."Greenness" is important to young people these days. Perhaps could go even bigger by contacting the universities teaching naval architecture and multiply the clever young person effect by sponsoring a design competition for an energy efficient sail assisted fishing craft. Imagine contacting the schools in India, Russia, China !! shiver me timbers ......you would have thousands of CHEAP , young, clever minds thinking about the goal...and the 2000 bucks you put up for the winning student concept !!! Gee...why not multiply the game and contact the Discovery Channel to cover the contest , episode one the concept, episode two the contestants, episode three ..the Green winner ...Yahooo !!!... 150 million people worldwide watching ! your share of the royalties ,15 million..enough to build a fantastic fish boat... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  6. MickT
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    MickT Junior Member

    Micheal- There is nothing green about the concept. Blast freezers run on electricity, which means diesel. The boat will burn more fuel per pound of fish caught than any similar motor vessel. It will just be able to do it at longer range and i'll end up with a nice cruiser when im done.
    Apex- I'm not sure a used boat modified will be cheaper, given the modifications i'll have to do for fish holds/machinery spaces and ballasting issues i know nothing about yet but suspect exist. But rest assured i'm definitely, definitely looking at that. Purpose of the question.
     
  7. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    ..to extend your range and time on station , with sailpower, hull shape or any design detail is green. Great idea. Keep working on it.
    The beauty of a fishing boat is its pure form and function. Sailing boats are the same..form and function. The combination of modern sail and a modern fishing boat will undoubtable be a beatiful vessel to look at and efficient.
     
  8. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I think that a standard trawler with outriggers has the structural strength to add a rig
     
  9. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Mick.....

    At least one of the Hartog boats was built in Coos Bay as Born Free. She ended up with a 6-71 in her and sails but I have no report on performance......Also her final tankage was 9000 usg. Bottom plate is 5/16" and topsides 1/4", frames are 6" by 3/8". You will go through roughly 60,000 pounds of steel building this boat, man hours will be 8,000 plus for the bare shell, that can be reduced with NC cut pieces. Current steel price roughly $0.80 a pound? So $40k to start.....

    Something like this might be workable.......

    Sailingtrollersm.jpg
     
  10. keysdisease
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    keysdisease Senior Member

    Csy44

    I haven't see mention of the CSY44 "Bottom Line" Pilot House sloops yet and I think as a modern production commercial fishing sailboat it worth mentioning.

    Only 6 are reported to have been made on the proven hull of the CSY44 bareboat charter sailing sloop. These were / are very popular aft cabin center cockpit sailboats made popular by Carribbean Sailing Yachts Bareboat Charter Company in the 1970-1980 era. CSY made and chartered hundreds of these boats, they were very heavily built to hold up under bareboat charter stress.

    I actually made deliveries for the charter company in the 1980's and used to see two of the fishing versions operating from the commercial docks in Key West during that time.



    http://csysailboats.blogspot.com/2006/10/bottom-liner-44s.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_Sailing_Yachts

    Steve
     

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  11. JRMacGregor
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    JRMacGregor Junior Member

    Mick

    Your carrying capacity will be a big driver. As Peter Radclyffe says, an 80ft Brixham trawler or French tunny smack would do the job for you (they did it before) but are big.

    For a steel sailing fishing boat of about 60ft, google PATANELA - she had displacement around 45 tonnes and was used (in 1960s or 70s) to go to Heard Island in the Antarctic on a famous expedition skippered by Bill Tilman. When you factor in the weight of the hull and masts, and ballast, there will not be much left of the 45t for the 20t or 15t cargo you want to carry. I fear 60ft is too small to carry what you want.

    Same for the Hartog design - the articles mention a 40t hold - but that does not sound right on a 63ft hull with 54t displacement and carrying 14t ballast.

    Of course you will not have a full hold ALL the time - so perhaps you might accept to be "overloaded" on occasions - giving you bigger draught and displacement on your short length. But whether or not that would be safe or possible to sail with is a different matter.

    Here are some sizes and carrying capacities of fishing vessels with hull forms reasonably close to their sailing ancestors;

    - 75ft LOA x 19'8" beam (draught aft 9'6"), displacement 114 tons, 20 tons carrying capacity, plus 12t fuel, 1.5t FW
    - 61.5ft LOA x 17'10" beam (draught aft 7ft), displacement 50 tons, 15 tons cargo carrying capacity plus 500 gallons fuel, 250 gallons FW

    Hope that gives you some ideas on size.
     
  12. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    thanks j r m, patanela, 6 mm plate, better if its 9 mm
     
  13. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    The numbers given above are meaningless unless the conditions are stated....Does the displacement figure include full holds, does it include all or some portion of the fuel? If it does include full holds.....full of what? Are they Mackerel, herring, redfish, sprats, is there ice included? Are they fresh or frozen, packaged or boxed?

    Transport Canada publishes stowage factors and density of various fisheries products for use in stability studies.

    They state Frozen Fillets in large blocks (with allowance for packaging, structure, and access) are about 1.29 to 1.61 cubic metres per tonne. The hold in my sketch above is roughly 2000 cubic feet or 56.6 cubic metres. That volume will, according to TC figures, contain about 35-42 tonnes of frozen fillets.

    Now let's look at freeboard....

    The sketch is perhaps half-load, guessing 70-75 Long tons (168,000 pounds). Fuel is 6000 usg, 1/2fuel is 21,400 pounds, 1/2 water is 5000 pounds, 1/2 catch is 43,500 pounds, so total 1/2 load is 70,000 pounds roughly. PPI for this boat is 4,000 pounds, so sinkage 17.5 inches.....She'll still have about 18" of freeboard to the maindeck.....which is lots.....

    In such a vessel the SA to weight or wetted surface is going to be low all the time, but we know that it takes little power to move a heavy hull at low speed....thus the sails can make a difference.....but to be economically viable they must be low cost....I don't think you can do a shinny modern yacht rig.....the cost will be fantastic due to large sizes of parts because of the boat's great stability (compared to typical sailing yachts). So it's galvanized wire and aluminum pipes.......
     
  14. larry larisky

    larry larisky Previous Member

    i hope you go for it. i would like to see pictures when you start building.
    good luck
     

  15. MickT
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    MickT Junior Member

    keysdisease-I saw the Bottom Liners when I first started looking around at this thing. They were built for bandit fishing grouper/snapper on wrecks in florida. They probably did quite well in that fishery, and I heard stories about them and other sailing rigs when I longlined grouper in Florida. Not exactly what i'm looking for, though I do intend to have jigging machines on the boat.
    Tad- Thank you for taking the time to produce such a detailed drawing. I would like to have the house aft, leaving about a 6-8' cockpit for trolling/baiting station, and a front deck covered with angled plates for sea keeping/weather shelter purposes, with about a 5'-6' opening with a ramp leading to the water line (swinging door) for the hauling station. It would be necessary to have an opening down the center under the house or along the side leading to the stern for setting the longline. The reel will face the stern for setting and haul with a right angle block. Alot of problem I see with this set up is the height of the house pushing the boom up to where it would do bad saily things (I ordered preleminary design of boats and ships off Amazon but it hasnt got here yet) and the stacks...I have worked on mud boats in the gulf converted to a 'North Sea Stacks' with the exhaust piping run all the way from the stern up and out on top of the house, but this was with 16v149s, not an engine that sensitive to backpressure. Can stacks for smaller, more modern turbodiesels be run up a mast or will the back pressure kill it? The menhaden steamer I work on has a deck that is canted quite a bit uphill unloaded, loaded from the front with 1.6 million pounds it ends up pointing downhill, but still seaworthy(barely). An upward sloping deck when not fully loaded would not work on a yacht, but I wouldnt mind.
    Again thank you all for your interest, Im working on a Google sketchup 3D model. Tad's house forward design is pretty cool.
    Tad- I saw on your website that you did a stability booklet for a sponsoned boat. There are a number of boats in this length for sale and minor hull damage seems to drop the price substantially while including alot of gear, which would save alot of money (steering rams aint cheap). Do you think it is possible to 'sponson'(I know you wouldnt use sponsons, or could you?) a sailboat for this purpose, or would the rounded hulls on most of them make it a problem. It seems doable strictly from a fab standpoint.
     
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