nautical miles on new French SV's.

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by rclouise, Oct 10, 2010.

  1. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    "And that's where it all startet, with leeboard jagts.. Yacht design.." Very true, in the 17th and beginning of 18th century the Dutch boats were the best, and copied by the English and French. In steel boats they were pioneers, and high masters in the design and building of small steel boats (and big ships also). Yacht is a Dutch word...

    "Allow me to sum up my thoughts on navigating those seas in two simple words...
    F*** THAT!" Vigorous statement...but blue water cruising boats must be able to manage these seas, as you can be caught in such a sea. Better to be out, but sometimes you're in. So a good training with experienced people in hard sea can save your life later...

    That can be very exciting with a good boat...not in so harder sea but a good one indeed.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ8vd9p8fDU 60 feet trimaran Geant skipped by Desjoyaux. A very good boat with and excellent skipper.

    And as the thread looks dead in its initial subject I have no shame to give another video link of trimaran racing.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4BCSKTbB98
    Look closely the last 5 seconds of the clip with Fujicolor... These races are very funny, true dog fights.
     
  2. rclouise
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    rclouise Junior Member

    Just want to thank you all for all the comments, links and most of all the history lessons. Having grown up in New England to a family of commercial fishermen from the Canadian Maritimes down to Boston, I think I can understand the tradition, and the need to design a boat starting with those leeboard jagts all the way to the modern tug the way people in this part of the world do. Before the history lesson I thought there were just a bunch of crazy French and Dutch sailors out there who decided on building boats this way. But as we know anywhere we sail we see different designs in work boats and for a reason.

    I just sold a 32 foot sail boat built in Denmark in 1962, designed by the famous American designer Phil Rhodes. I had her for years even while sailing in our Mason 44 but we needed to move on with getting a new cruising boat. With the sale of the boat went a book of all the boats Rhodes designed and I found many of his 1930's, 40's 50's and early 60's were centerboard racer/cruisers that won such races as the New Port to Bermuda and even Fastnet, I believe. According to the book those centerboard boats were very seaworthy, fast and like all of Rhodes boats beautiful.

    We will continue asking questions to the designers and builders of the Aluminum cruising boats in both countries and when we are happy with a builder we will fly over to walk the walk. We certainly will be proud of owning and sailing a blue water cruiser built in this style and in this part of the world. But please keep info flowing here if you come up with any.

    Here are some links to discussions to the Boreal 44 with the designer and one more on the Ovni 435.
    www.morganscloud.com/2010/08/22/ovni-435/
    www.morganscloud.com/2010/05/17/boat-for-the-high-latitudes/
    Thanks
    Cheers
    Steve and Tracy.
     
  3. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

    Exciting indeed!

    Here is another one, Alain Gautier end Michel Desjoyeaux:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZDS3miKQCc

    (Not exactly what this thread was about but these tris are French and do have a shallow draft and daggerboards, so, I recon we are not completly of the subject? ;))

    I was hesitating with bringing too much history in, didn’t want to hijack the thread but if you like it, there are few more things to say. Just not tonight, have to go to catch few hours of sleep before dawn.
    Cheers
     
  4. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    rclouise You're welcome, thanks for your amability.
    And reminding us Mr Rhodes, whose name I knew only by the 12 meters Weatherly...Making a search I've discovered a lot of things about this prolific NA and his centerboard sail boats. I have read in internet your Rhode's boat made in 1962 in Denmark must be a classic long keel with attached rudder if it's a Chesapeake 32. I agree with you; boats are born from necessity and the human ingenuity...tradition.

    We would like to know the results of your search. I'm curious to know how the famous chain locker has been designed...whatever your choice be sure you'll get 150 NM relax in a very secure boat...Good luck in your search. Thanks also for the links.

    Yes Milan, it's an hybrid resulting of the improbable crossing between centerboards and Pacific multihulls...The 2 skippers are known to get the max from their boats and that was full gas. That I admire also it's the way the tri Broceliande is able to pass at a speed surely in the very high 20 or low 30 knots over the waves, without desintegrating ...

    I participated on the structure of some race tris at the end of the eighties, when we were all in a thick fog about structural calculations on so large and highly stressed structures in composites. Worst: nobody knew really the real value of involved stresses, only educated guessing. The analysis of all the broken pieces (there was a lot and that was very instructive) plus a few campaigns of measures gave the beginning of the desired data, specially the dynamic ones. A good mix of theory and empiricism.

    Now there is the right methodology; some engineers in France are very good in this field. The boats are now very reliable when perfectly made, if you consider how hard they work, over so long times (until almost two months WOT even in the south Pacific during a circumnavigation...) in any kind of weather and sea state.

    Coming back to centerboards, I'll appreciate history...I think we can hijack the thread, without bothering rclouise. In my side I'm going to see the early French side. It's not a easy task to open a slot in the middle of the keel of a classic wooden boat. I would like to know the solutions our predecessors used...
     
  5. rclouise
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    rclouise Junior Member

    Yes you can hijack the thread, you all have far more knowledge on boat design on one finger than I have gained over 59 years.

    Ilan, no we have not decided yet for many reasons. I will say most likely it will be between Boreal and and the Ovni 445 if we go new and we really want to have that experience with a boat builder/designer who encourages your participation in the building and design. The other Dutch and French boats are incredible but maybe beyond our means. I really feel this far into life, 59 and 60, we can learn more from the building of a new boat than from the re outfit of an old boat as we have done plenty of that over the years, I have the scares on my hands and knees to prove how much rebuilding we have done. The chain locker deal is not a big thing, just a lot of mental details on how it could prove a problem. Our bigger concerns are the single unprotected rudder on the Boreal and the twin rudders on the 445. I really like the 435 single rudder system but they do not make it anymore. Also Tracy and I talk about the European Galley design and can't figure it out why they no longer make a seaworthy galley to cook in. I thought all you Europeans love to cook. Cooking for us during a Passage in all but the worst weather is important to our health and keeping from getting weary from too many days on watch. We need to figure out how to put a wind vane self steering system on the Boreal, none have been put on one yet. I would have to have one besides auto pilot, I'm sure with the two dagger boards the auto pilot steers very easy and is not working hard in all conditions but with a single unprotected rudder I think I might want a self steering system that can be converted into a rudder in an emergency. There is so much we like about the Boreal but I need to feel just right before I spend the time and money. We love the water tight hard dodger, It's amazing even in the tropics while making passage how more comfortable one is when fully protected while on watch. I think you pay more attention to your watch when you are not ducking and covering, even in the tropics one can get cold and tired. We like the idea of the work room instead of a third berth but I would like to see the work room in the v-berth area as I will never sleep in the V-berth area even while at anchor. Need to do more checking on that. What do you guys think of some of the stuff I brought up, rudders,galley, etc.
    Cheers
    Steve.
     
  6. rclouise
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    rclouise Junior Member

    Ilan, yes it was a Rhodes Chesapeake. It was my favorite boat growing up in New England as its beauty in shear line was beyond belief. We are lucky that the new owners of RC LOUISE will let us use her when they are not. And they will take great care of her, I turned down a lot of buyers who may not have. www.rhodes32.com/
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  7. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Sorry for being so late for going on the thread: I have had three very busy days...The Cheasapeake is a very classical boat, very "between the world wars" even if designed at the beginning of the 1960's, and nicely built. It's confirmed by the number of boats that have survived until today almost 50 years later... The quality of the European wood yacht builders was (and is) very high: Abekin with the Concordia, Rameau with the Cornu's designs, Sylvestro with some Olin Stephen's designs and many others.

    Yes I find that the kitchens are awful. But the main customers are english, german and nordic...countries not known for good cooking (sorry but I'm french...and I've traveled a lot in Europe. In England happily for surviving there are the Indian restaurants, because except the rosbeef and pickles and 2 kinds of cheeses...)
    It's my personal opinion, we are in the sames ages going to the 60's. And I feel that my physical capacities are not even close to those I could have in my forties very far from what I was able to do in my twenties...
    If you are planning to navigate in couple, a sailboat of almost 14 meters, 10 tons light is frankly too big. You are going to suffer. Look at the surfaces of the sails of the 445...oh la la, the genoa is huge, 4 speed winches are mandatory for a 60 old guy, and the spis will never be used...

    Late Philip Weld, when he designed with Dick Newick the tri Moxie made 2 choices; 15 meters so 3 meters less than Rogue Wave. It was 2 tons less so the surface sail was highly reduced, and he put a "geriatric" (the Weld's own words) sail system (the Hood one). It was a wise choice as he won the Northstar at more than 60 years old.

    By experience I prefer big fully battered mainsails and small jibs, and I'm not very fond of furlers. These delicate and expensive things have tendency to go wrong at the worst
    time. These battered mainsails are powerfull with easy control of tension, fullness, and power. To reef it is a breeze. "Automatic" reefs with lazy jacks have just a little windage penalty and it remains simple.

    For jibs, I like solent jibs with a track reel like a mainsail. With such a gear, going upwind in a strong wind becomes relax: just the tiller to push for tacking...

    To give you an idea a lone man controls easily a fully battened 82 sq. meters mainsail, and a 8 sq. meters jib so a total of 90 sq meters (more than 900 sq feet) on a 18 metres mast with just 2 mid sized winches, good pulleys and tackles. Without going to a almost catboat, this kind of rigging make things easier while cruising.

    I'm always surprised by the number of tracks, winches, furlers and so on on monohulls. It looks like a Harken's catalog. Truly I do not understand the fashion of big jibs and genoas: that ask for a big mast and gear (because of the compression involved) to have a no sagging genoa, plus the furlers, tracks, big winches and hardware. I've raced on several Dick Carter designs and it was a pain with these oversized genoas and mainsails of the size of a handkerchief.

    Monohull yachting is very traditionalist: yachtmen use almost the same rigging since 50 years, just adding new gadgets.

    Why not consider a boat just a bit under 12 meters? or staying on 14 meters but lighter and with a different rigging?
     
  8. rclouise
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    rclouise Junior Member

    My wife and I had a great laugh over the galley comment and it being the English, German and Nordic's fault.:p . Where's Napoleon when you need him! I have to assume that people are making up lot's of meals before passage and freezing them for use in the micro wave. We took the micro wave out of our Mason 44 and over the side it went along with the air conditioner unit at a depth of 867 fathoms 3 degrees north of the equator. If anyone wants them I'll give you an exact GPS reading.

    What we like so much about the Boreal 44 is the sail plan. That boat takes so little sail to sail. Full battened main which is small, use a yankee on the head sail with a good strong stay sail and you have great control to weather up to about twenty five kts. as long as you reef and furl in time. We really like the new drifters that are being made along with a snuffer for those many days of below 15 knots of trade winds one always seems to find. From what we can gather the Boreal 44 sails most of the time with the main up and usually reefed on any type of reach. Our Mason 44 cutter rigged sailed 90 % of the time on just the head sails if we wanted to balance the boat for the self steering. I'm thinking that because of the dagger boards on the B-44 you don't get that waddle of your stern on a broad reach. Maybe the mast is further forward on the Boreal than the older style cutter rigs? Did you notice on the Boreal 44 that there is no main sail traveler and the winches are sized smaller for a boat that size? According to the designer you don't need the traveler or bigger winches with his sail plan. I'm hard headed but I'm wanting to believe him and hopefully if and when we meet we will have great discussions on such subjects along with politics.
    My grand father who encouraged me from the time I was 6 to sail around the world always told me to sail in nothing smaller than 32 or bigger than 37 feet. I hope he is not rolling in his grave as we choose way bigger boats and a none deep keeled boat. But times have changed I guess just like the new style, non seaworthy galleys being built on boats built from a people who live to cook real food.

    As for the hank on argument over the furler system I'll go with the furler any day and we have cruised both ways. We have helped cruisers repair maybe 3 furler systems over the years and every time I took someones apart, that's if you could get it apart I found they had never had it apart. They are so easy to keep in good shape and trouble free just like anything on a boat it needs love from time to time.
    I agree with you on the 455 it is a lot of boat and we are taking that into consideration.
    What are peoples thoughts about having the Boreal 44 rigged for a trysail? With the small sail plan and a very deep reef on the main could one get away without a trysail on board? I think the full batten main would be too deep even fully reefed to use in such a way.
    Cheers.
    Steve and Tracy.
     
  9. rclouise
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    rclouise Junior Member

    I want to thank everyone who posted on this thread, it really helped us decide to look seriously into the Boreal 44. I will be leaving in mid March for a trip to Boreal to ask a lot of serious questions, take a look at the building of the Boreal and getting a sea trial. Guess I will enjoy being in a small french town hopefully with good food and wine.

    I have lots of questions on the boat, and look forward to having them answered. I also want to know their business plans for the next 2, 5 and 10 years. Getting a good answer there will be important as so many new boat building companies go out of business and that is not good. They do have a lot of orders for the next 2 years and one opening for a completion in June 2013.

    If any one who has taken a good look at the Boreal's either in person or though their website and can think of some great questions to ask about the design I would love to hear them. Maybe you know some information or know what sailors and designers in Europe are saying about the boat or the company please post it, good or maybe not so good. My wife and I really like the idea of the Boreal 44 and we are serious but a bit nervous about buying a boat made so far away from Oregon USA.
    Thanks
    Steve and Tracy
     
  10. phollings
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    phollings New Member

    I have a question that would seem to relate to any of these beachable aluminum boats. I think that as they settle down on the hard, given varying wind and currents, that there must be some abrasion on the bottom and, if the bottom is painted, it may abrade through the paint at points and cause corrosive blisters due to the absence of Oxygen. Does this, in fact, happen? What are the solutions? Is it a reasonable practice to leave the Aluminum hull unpainted below the waterline ( to avoid a blistering problem) and to use periodic beachings to powerwash for remove fouling?
     
  11. vraymond108
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    vraymond108 New Member

    Boreal

    rclouise, Did you end up buying the Boreal. I went and visited both the Jean-Francois's at Boreal. In the end a bought a used Meta Dalu 47 as I just could not accept the galley design for a cruising boat and it seemed too far fetched to think about a total redesign of the interior even though they were willing to consider it.
    Well I kept true to the French but bought a used boat. Sometimes it is easier to edit than start from scratch. Anyhow that is what I did. How about you?
     
  12. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

    fantastic thread - lots of very good reading - thanks
     
  13. rclouise
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    rclouise Junior Member

    Just want to thank everyone here at Boat design who helped us make the deal with Boreal. The information you all provided was critical on us deciding on ordering the Boreal 44. The trip over to France was great and the company was terrific. Both Jean- Francois were truly wonderful along with the entire working staff. One week I spent doing sea trials and hanging out at the company talking with the staff about everything under the sun with concern for the Boreal. I made the deal and they start building this month, the 44 will be done in June 2013. We will sail from there, Northern Europe in summer and then down to Spain and the canaries islands before crossing after cyclone season. We will be in the Pacific by March of the following year and off to the S. Pacific again.
    We have made changes in the galley with more hand holds, best we can do on a modern design it seems and we might replace the aft head with another chart table area. The forward head is far enough back in the boat to make it manageable in rough weather. We will also be the first Boreal to have a wind vane for self steering along with auto pilot. We will use the wind pilot as it folds up when at anchor so the swim step can be put down. We will be making at least a couple of trips over while the boat is being built to learn more and see our new baby. The company welcomes owners to visit at anytime and that is rare indeed.
    Well I'm out the door for a week to go fishing in the great NW, snow forecast but I have plenty of single malt to camp out with. Again thanks for helping make our choice on a new and different boat anyway for us.
    Steve and Tracy.
     
  14. nemier
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    nemier Junior Member

    RCLOUISE,
    I'm currently researching aluminum sailboats and stumbled across this thread. I apologize in advance for rekindling an old thread. So,,, How is the new boat? I understand that it's in-build. Are you happy with the progress?
     

  15. rclouise
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    rclouise Junior Member

    nemier,
    Yes we are very happy with the progress at Boreal. As our Boreal 44 is a semi custom boat we are enjoying working with the owners/designers Jean-Francois Delvoye and Jean Francois- Eeman. We are using Colin Speedie from the Morgans Cloud website as our go between on work being done. There are other Boreal owners here in N. America using Colin, his knowledge of aluminum boats is well established and he speaks fluent boat French which we do not. The Boreal company is outstanding with up dated reports and pictures almost weekly. I was super impressed with the crew at boreal building the boat. I spent a week at the shop before I signed on and the workers really do outstanding work, that was one major reason I chose a Boreal. Right now we are working on the design of putting a Wind Pilot on the stern so that the swim platform still can be used. Between Peter from Wind Pilot and the crew at Boreal we have solved the problem with a simple and strong solution, I was amazed, I had thought about the problem for hours with no solution.
    If you have not done so check out Morgans Cloud website they have extensive information on Aluminum boats.
    Best of luck
    Steve and Tracy
     
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