Incredible "Secrets of Yacht Design" website located...

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by pkoken, Jan 6, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. SeaDrive
    Joined: Feb 2004
    Posts: 223
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 15
    Location: Connecticut

    SeaDrive Senior Member

    From where did you get this piece of misinformation?

    Different subject: my understanding is that the big canters use engine-driven hydraulics for canting, and can reposition the keel as quickly as the genoa can be retrimmied. Still, I should think that a canter would be more of a hazard in a close quarters situation.
     
  2. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 689
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -6
    Location: water world

    mighetto New Member

    In the USA, most race fleets prohibit centerboarders, and daggerboards, which are a kind of centerboard, but not yet canters from altering the configuration of the board during a race.

    SeaDive,

    From where did you get this piece of misinformation?

    Boy I hope it is untrue! I am thinking keel boat racing. In the context of keel boat buoy racing, this is likely correct. Your snip would better reflect my meaning if reworded. "In the USA, most keel boat race fleets prohibit centerboarders, and daggerboards, which are a kind of centerboard, but not yet canters from altering the configuration of the board during a race."

    Different subject: my understanding is that the big canters use engine-driven hydraulics for canting, and can reposition the keel as quickly as the genoa can be retrimmied.

    Engine-driven is the argument that will be used to keep canters out of some race fleets. PHRF-NW however is allowing water ballast to be pumped by motor driven means so this is analygous. I do not see the motor-driven argument as deminishing racablity of the canters except at clubs dominated by Samurai sailors. These old warriors know their ways of sailing are useless in competing with modern race boat fleets on fast Olympic style courses. They will continue to argue the benefits of two fixed daggers, a long keel and a shorter rudder and they will continue to be treated as wards of the sailing clubs they belong to, just as the Samurai became wards of Japan in the age of the Black Ships when it was obvious to all exept their kind that they could no longer provide value, outside of a show, to their societies. We call the show, windward-leeward races.
    [​IMG]
    At a certain point it is time to move on. We have come to that point in the USA by virtue of the worse showing in the Olympics in 60 years in the sailing sport and the inability to even challenge for the Americas Cup during the last 7 years.

    Still, I should think that a canter would be more of a hazard in a close quarters situation.

    You think having 10 or more crew through their bodies from one side to the other on a race boat safer? You see lubbers sit on juries. Those lubbers view the boom as a mechanism used to knock crew from one side of the boat to the other or overboard. It takes special training to see otherwize. The training currently given the keel boat sailor. Modern designs have to reduce the number of crew needed to operate them. This is a major benefit of movable ballast. Do not get me wrong. I am not a canting keel fan yet. I just see arguments against the canters to be similar to arguments against all forms of movable ballast and have expanded the definition of movable ballast to include swing keels (another name for centerboard) and daggers.
     
  3. Reemul
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 39
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Puyallup, Wa

    Reemul Junior Member

    What race fleets are you talking about Frank? The S2 7.9 raced at Key West and in most of the NOOD regattas. And in those races tey were allowed to pull the daggerboard.

    Also, you havn't answered my question on my previous post.
     
  4. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 689
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -6
    Location: water world

    mighetto New Member

    Good morning Reemul. So you disagree that most keel boat race fleets
    prohibit foil retraction? I think you looked into this for Sugar a year or so ago
    and discovered that the additional seconds tacked onto your rating to do so
    in a PHRF-NW race might undo any potential benefit. This is a rating issue
    that may need to be protested. The sport advances by protests. If I were
    allowed back on your boat to crew, I might encourage foil retraction to reach
    planing speed on downwind runs, because every time I run numbers on the
    S2 7.9 I am convinced she should do so. The centerfoil in your photo I
    assume was fully extended. Might retraction have allowed her to break from
    the sea? How about moving all the crew aft as we are instructed on the X
    boats to do? This might reduce the length at waterline enough to crest the
    bow wave at a slower speed and break from the sea.

    If you have the time, try modifying Sugar's buttocks on your Catia program
    so it doesn't lift but instead keeps flat like on Murrelet.
    [​IMG]
    The above photo shows a rising arse on Sugar. This I understand makes
    sense at displacement speeds because the turbulance from the wave form
    created by moving forward does not suck her backwards. Instead it falls
    harmlessly under the arse. (on Murrelet we sail 4th mode to do this.)
    But the lifted buttocks on Sugar discourages her from planing.

    On the Category A vessel I was crewing on Saturday we had constant 18 to
    22 knot winds with the windwaves at 3 to 4 feet. We kept the wind but lost
    the waves after getting into deep water and even at 4.5 knots of boat speed
    there was nothing like the stern wake of Murrelet's photo, or of yours. The
    next day in calms under motor power, I noticed the start of something like
    the wave form off the stern of the Murrelet photos but nothing so dramatic.

    Thank you for keeping the buttocks discussion going. I also think your rudder
    is a lifting foil because it is so long and well braced.
    [​IMG]
    So when you take the race chair position are you planning any changes in
    racing rules regarding foil retraction? If so Huzzah Huzzah. I kiss your feet!
     
  5. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 689
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -6
    Location: water world

    mighetto New Member

    We look to France for our sailing culture. But not the wine. You are better off with US Sailing's brand. :) Any way the French not only gave us the statue of Liberty, and the swill they would not drink in their own country, but also multihullism. They actually spent tax dollars developing multihulls. Now on a multihull the foils probably do not lift. But on a monohull at a heel there will be lift unless the rudders are hung so they cant outward to compensate for the heel.

    The question is how much lift. On sailing surf boards and on the Mac26x, you want the foils that are under the most weight on the boat to provide the most lift. That probably requires more substatial rudder hardware on a boat that is meant to plane where the operator is expected to stand or sit nearby.
     
  6. Reemul
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 39
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Puyallup, Wa

    Reemul Junior Member

    Frank,
    I decided not to take the 3 sec a mile penalty because I did not see a benefit in the club races that I do. I am already the scratch boat and do not see how this would help.
    You however did not answer my point on what regattas do not allow a daggerboard boat.
    As for your comments about changing the hull shape, I will not dignifiy that remark with an answer.
    My point is that if my boat is not going to plan in the conditions we were in, then your boat does not have a chance in hell of doing it. The only time my boat has done 15kts planning was in 30-35kts of wind downwind. Also, so far when you have sailed in the same race as me, I have effectively horizoned you. Where is this speed you keep talking about?
     
  7. Reemul
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 39
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Puyallup, Wa

    Reemul Junior Member

    Frank,
    I am also posting this publicly. Do not post any more pictures of my boat without asking me first. You do not have the right. I own the boat and I decide if I want to have a picture published . Not you. Even more so when it is out of the water. I am only going to post this once.
     
  8. mistral
    Joined: Jul 2004
    Posts: 154
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 22
    Location: Sardinia, Italy

    mistral Senior Member

    really poor question. I perfectly know how to calculate it, a vertical component of lift when the boat is heeled, it's a calculations that even a smart high school boy can do in five minutes. Do you know how to do it Frankie???? I guess no.
    That's the reason i keep on telling you RUDDERS ARE NOT LIFTING FOILS!!!
    Take a good book of aerodynamic basics and stop with your absurd statements.
    Currently i think you don't get the difference between a wing section and a cow.

    Mistral
     
  9. skinny boy
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 51
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Anartica

    skinny boy Junior Member

    A wing section moos. Of course he does. Everyone knows cows fly and mac26x plane because both have lifting foils! A cow has six of them shorter than the four propulsion units but much more efficient at generating lift.
     
  10. mistral
    Joined: Jul 2004
    Posts: 154
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 22
    Location: Sardinia, Italy

    mistral Senior Member

    mmmmm, i thought they were efficient on generatink MILK; anyway, ok, i'm going to catch a cow and test her in the towing tank, let's see if she produces more milk, pardon LIFT, than a MAC26
    :) :) :)

    Mistral
     
  11. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 689
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -6
    Location: water world

    mighetto New Member

    You have never objected before? They are my photos. I stole the shots fair and square. :) You will just have to chat with the boat yard. I tell you what, get the SSSS BB back on line. It has been hacked badly by Crank Boy and Tripp Gal after I suggested they may have been behind problems you had collecting donations at the bar during the last SSSS general meeting. I tell you these folks are not your friends.

    Well, perhaps all is well from your view. I was fortunate in printing out a screen shot with their handles on line during the time of the hacking. A fellow named pond sailor was also online. Probably an innocent. Isn't this boatdesign forum fine? We have had none of that hacking here and even some anarchy free discussions. Huzzah Huzzah. BTW, I have been notified that I have until Friday to protest Trip Gal and Crank Boy's behaviour under rules for unsportsman like conduct on the Internet. I suppose I will just hand deliver that, unless the SSSS BB is restored by end of business day. In that case, good gag but a real need for security on the SSSS BB.
     
  12. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 689
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -6
    Location: water world

    mighetto New Member

    You have seen that lubbers dictionary haven't you. They had a definition of Surf and Turf - something like slime & cow.... anyway :) :rolleyes: :cool:
     
  13. skinny boy
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 51
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Anartica

    skinny boy Junior Member

    Accusing people of committing a crime is pretty bold. I trust you have proof to back up your claims. If I were them I would get a lawyer and I would sue you and SSSS. Apparently that is the only way you will learn anything from your behaviour.

    By the way, there are no "rules for unsportman like conduct on the Internet". I think you should definitely protest. I would like to go to that hearing. Please post the date and time. I will fly in for such an entertaining time. Making false allegations is liable under the law and those people will have the last laugh if they chose to excercise their rights.

    So I did a search for the SSSS board and see that it is only for a single race and nothing else. Apparently it has not been restored and is after the business day so when is the protest hearing time. Under what rules is the protest being done? Who is the convening authority and what rule is being alledged broken?

    This should rise to the ranks of admiralty law in a hurry I am sure the Supreme Court will want to rule on this.

    It is not a sportsman rule you are accusing people of it is a federal felony offense. I would make sure you have your protest form filled out correctly.
     
  14. FranksaDork
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 13
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Olympia, WA

    FranksaDork Junior Member

    Well, you're wrong about that Frank. My advice to you would be to shut your cake hole on that subject.


    It won't be. Thanks to you for the most part. Did you read the moderators message to you before it was shut down? Didn't think so.
     

  15. frankofile
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 91
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: So Cal

    frankofile Junior Member

    Hey, this sounds good! How did Frankie manage to pollute the SSSS BB???
     
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.