Foiler Design

Light winds, that's all it is Chris. Yes of course this is the downfall of foilers but we are talking about wind under 7-8 knots. Not so likely over a real championship regatta of a week or so. Who really enjoys the light stuff anyway (except the Swiss)? especially when you know that at 10-12 knots of wind you will be absolutely stonking along at near 20 knots on the good reaches and an easy 10-12 knots upwind.

You can also consider the current foilers to be in the very early stages of development, so in the near future the moths could be foiling at 5-6 knots????

Some news too! coming soon the "foily niner", that's a 49er on foils of course.

 

Yep John, I hope I was making it clear that the effect was caused by light winds. And I agree that of course foilers are in the early stages of development. There's also a lot of publicity when foilers show their incredible pace and therefore it seems only fair to also note when they are not going so well. In the same spirit, when Rohan made a call on the IMCA board for all Mothies to promote Moths of all types - scow, skiff, foiler - I thought it was very good of him and posted it on SA.

I'm not entirely sure about boats that aren't fun and competitive in light winds. Windsurfing went just towards sailing in moderate and strong winds and it's now a fraction of the popularity that it was back in the days of longboards when people sailed in light airs as well.

Will there be any Foily Niners in Sydney? Sounds amazing. I've never got my *** into gear to go out the foiling 18 but of course the wingtip foils are not really the way to go, are they.

Doug, winds were light (crews half out on trap generally from pics) to very light for the tailenders. The guy foiling at the Tiger was new to the class but the pics show him already foiling and he had done very well in his first Moth regatta. Sure, Rohan would have done better but then again, how many other classes there had the world champ representing them? You can't have it both ways, the boats scream in a breeze so the handicap must represent that and therefore you'll get cruelled in the light. One of the earlier UK foilers was there but he sailed his IC instead....I don't think he's regularly foiling but that's not knocking him, he's over 60 IIRC.

 

foiler posts

Now I get it... I wondered when I saw Chris's byline on a post under "Foiler Design". I said to myself:"Doug, why do you think Chris posted under 'Foiler Design'?" Myself said back to me: " You know why,Doug, there must be something negative about foilers that he's found and he can hardly wait to get the news out."
Well, Chris at this stage in development foilers are remarkable when on foils and have a slight problem in light air. The reason is obvious and well known: the foils develop too much drag in lite air when not able to lift the boat and the sailors sailing the boats(with one exception) have too little experience with the boat to take full advantage of marginal conditions.
Now that said- John is so right- these are early days: the first two foil hydrofoil in the history of sailing sailed the first time in 1999 and it was only in 2003 that the first really worked out system started being regularly sailed.
Future Moths and Moth like bi-foil monofoilers will be able to take off in as little as 5-6 mph and some will have retractable foils.
My opinion is that for a peoples foiler a take off in betwen 5-8 mph of wind is probable and that being the case who cares about non foiling conditions? Few of the 15-30 windsurfer regulars sail in less than 10-12mph of wind at the Caleema Center in Merrit Island ,Fl. Seldom do you see Hobies out in winds less than that-you can't fly a hull.
Now, I know the current Moth rules prevent changing from hydrofoils to "normal" foils during a regatta if the wind goes light but it seems in an all class regatta they should be able to change.
But I don't think a widely available "peoples foiler" needs retracting foils-just the lowest liftoff speed and high top end speed. Both are achievable in the same boat with foils that can be reconfigured for the conditions simply and effectively.At that point, nobody will buy a foiler to sail in light air period because with a takeoff between 5-8mph you've got the whole practical wind range covered: the boat will foil before a windsurfer will plane and foil before a cat can fly a hull. What more could you ask of the hottest new technology to hit small sailboats since the Dawn of Civilization?

 

Hi Doug,

It was not Simon but a mothie named Sam Pascoe who sailed at Rutlands.

regards

Berthold

 

Oh for Christ's sake Doug, I noted in the post that the boats are now recognised by the RYA rating authorities as being incredibly quick. I referred to their superb performance when foiling repeatedly. What do you want me to do, just be incredibly dishonest by hushing up the other side of the coin?

Re "My opinion is that for a peoples foiler a take off in betwen 5-8 mph of wind is probable and that being the case who cares about non foiling conditions? Few of the 15-30 windsurfer regulars sail in less than 10-12mph of wind at the Caleema Center in Merrit Island ,Fl."

That's EXACTLY what concerns me, Doug. When windsurfing in its early days was about sailing in light winds as much as it was about sailing in strong winds, the sport was enormous and growing strongly. Then, when people like Brockhaus (F2) and others started pushing windsurfing as being only a sport for planing conditions, it got so people would not sail apart from the days when conditions were right for fast planing. Such days are fairly rare in most of the world, where the typical summer breeze peaks at about 10 knots or less. Gear was designed around the perfect conditions that rarely occur consistently.

So when windsurfing started to be seen as something that couldn't be done in normal conditions, what happened? It became a shadow of its former self. People got sick of waiting on shore for those nice sunny days of steady 10 + knots. They got sick of the fact that in much of the world, you're likely to get most of your good breezes in winter when it's too cold to have a fun social sail at the beach. So they gave up windsurfing, in their hundreds of thousands. The sport is only recovering now that new boards have put the emphasis on light wind performance.

I'm not sure about what has happened to Hobie type cats in the USA, I know they're not particularly strong. What happened here was that there was an enormous boom (210-300 boats in my cat club's regatta) when the cat scene centred on boats like the Hobie 16; tough, cheap, aimed at beginners, simple, not so fast.

Then the cat scene moved to more expensive, larger, more complicated, faster boats aimed at more experienced sailors. Now 50 boats is a big regatta. The whole scene is a shadow of its former self.

That's why I'm concerned about complication and boats that don't perform well in light airs.

The reason I sometimes put stuff up like that on the 'net is because some people insist on seeing an unbalanced view FOR foilers.

I'm interested in one, I'd like to sail one, maybe when I get the time I'll build some foils. BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that we should just sit back and take the stream of propaganda from you without sometimes introducing FACTS. It seems strange that you think it's perfectly fine to trumpet the news far and wide when a foiler Moth beats A class cats, yet you call people bigoted when they dare mention when a foiler is beaten .

 

discombobulation

Chris, I certainly never said you were bigoted but I'm not the only one who has noticed that your posts more often than not cast a negative slant on foilers. At the above regatta ,for instance, why did the Moth use foils in non foiling conditions? I would have thought that they could sail with normal foils if not sailing in the Moth class under Moth rules. Sounds to me like the Mothies in this regatta might have been somewhat inexperienced in foiling in marginal conditions and because of that the results provided no meaningful conclusions.
I doubt you've read this whole thread- not being particularly interested in foiler design- but numerous times I have discussed the need for retractng foils on certain boats for improved light air performance-perhaps in the Moth Class where the arbitrary rule is that you must sail with the foils you started the regatta with.
New foiler classes could just as easily pass a rule allowing the reconfiguring of foils for the conditions-and thats probably a better solution in small foilers than retracting foils. And the fact that new foilers will be able to take off in light air-between 5-8mph means that most of the time you'll be foiling! I have an rc foiler that takes off in 5-6mph NOW(note: mph ,not knots!) and it won't be long before full size foilers are doing the same.
I don't know much about it but I do know the Caleema Center is a hotbed of windsurfing and those people have told me that they simply don't enjoy sailing in non planing conditions and further that the decline in numbers of windsurfers in other areas was due to the cost along with the requirement of multiple rigs, fins etc. to be competitive.
But none of that applies to foilers since even now they are foiling in conditions windsurfers can barely plane and soon will be below that speed for takeoff. And in future multiclass regattas there should be foilers that are allowed to change their hydrofoils for "normal" foils in wind below 5-8mph.
Again, this thread is not a celebration of the greatness of foilers it is a bunch of guys from all over the world that are looking at foiling problems and trying to achieve solutions that will improve the technology.

 

Re "Again, this thread is not a celebration of the greatness of foilers it is a bunch of guys from all over the world that are looking at foiling problems and trying to achieve solutions that will improve the technology."

Having flicked back a few pages to refresh my memory I must say you're right. I'm sorry I put a general "no free lunch" comment which seems like a "downer" in a forum which is, as you say, devoted to technical issues. My mistake.

EDIT

SOME OF THE EARLIER POST COULD BE READ AS VERY INSULTING TO OTHERS; SORRY, IT WASN'T MEANT THAT WAY AND WAS VERY BADLY WRITTEN.

MEA CULPA.

 

L'Hydroptere

I haven't followed much of this thread subject, but I did just come across this reference of photos of an older foil boat that's breathing new life, "L'Hydroptere"

L'HYDROPTERE SAILS AGAIN...AND FAST !...
After two years of work used to rebuilt the arm and set a new system able
to adjust the loads of the foils, Alain Thabault's l'Hydroptere sails
again and will attempt various speed records in the near future.

This week l'Hydroptere broke the record from Dover to Calais, covering
the 19 miles in 34 minutes and 24 seconds.

 

Hydroptere

The saga of this boat is fascinating-good to see them up and at it again!
Apparently(I don't read French well) they've just broken a relatively short distance record at 30 knots-not bad-in fact, excellent!
They may also have a method to control the angle of incidence of the foils relative to the boat-this may allow the surface piercing foils to generate some righting moment. If anybody knows more about this I'd love to hear it.

 

L'hydroptere

Hi,


I try to translate the presse release :

On February 09 2005 “ l’Hydroptère” cuts the finishing line in a cloud of spray at forty knots, establishing a new record Dover (England) – Calais(France) in 34 minutes and 24 seconds.

The hydroptère skipper Alain Thébault with his crew realises an achievement : 19 nautic miles with 33.3 knots on average.

With this performance, “l’hydroptère” beats the time of the mythical crossing of the airplane pilot Louis Blériot who, in 1909, flew over the English Channel in 37 minutes. She pulverizes too the record of Jean Le Cam, with 29 knots on its “Bonduelle” trimaran.

The high speeds carried out on this run, with a max speed at 43,4 knots ( in spite of two violent waves impacts) show that it is possible to run offshore with a high speed average.

Yves Parlier, one of the more important French sailors (Stepped hulls catamaran prototype “Médiatis – Région Aquitaine”), will be the first to congratulate the crew for this historical exploit.

www.hydroptere.com

Gérard Delerm
http://gerard.delerm.free.fr

 

Hydroptere

Wow! And thank you!
Do you know whether the angle of incidence of the main foils is adjustable underway?

 

L'Hydroptere

I think the angle of incidence of the main foils is not adjustable. The angle of attack of the rear inverted T foil is hydraulically adjustable (that is allowed to adjust pitching).

The latest improving consist to put a big nitrogen damper on each main foil to absorb waves shocks.

Gérard Delerm

 

Foils wingtips

Hi,
we bought two Australian foilers and beside learning to sail them we will soon begin experimenting on our own designs. I was wondering if it would be worthwhile to use some kind of wingtip like Hoerner's or a simple end plate or some sort of winglets at the ends of the T foils or go for wider bottom wings instead may be of elliptical planform.
Thanks.
Marco.

 

Hi Marco, this is right, It is my understanding so far that the gains from this are minimal or non-existant. Adding endplates is drag in it's self which cancels out the benefit. There are much bigger gains in simply practicing and also in the overall design/foil configuration than these small things. Garth and I both had the same design foil system as Rohan and the other top guys but with nice tapered foils at the moth worlds but we generally finished around 5th-6th place on our good races which could have been two legs behind the winning boat which was Rohan every race! At the moment practice counts for everything.

 

Foils

Ciao John,
I didn't know that you had already made elliptical wings.
Of course I understand that practice is most important.
But you know I am too old to sail a foiler!
I am just trying to contribute in another way.
See you at the Europeans.
Marco.