The perfect Passagemaker? (style within this genre)

ok point taken fully understood

now the million dollar question




bottom line
how much

what could the estimated thumb suck price be?
complete boat ready to go, just add fuel and food and were cruising

 

i hope i dont come across as an uninformed newbie - which i guess i am, but i have been following this thread with since its inception and im most interested in peoples thoughts on the topic.

i dont recall anyone mentioning designs by michael kasten. although many are smaller the the suggested 20m+ mark, i think the lines and intended purposes of some of his boats warrant consideration?

thoughts?

 

I know the site and have never liked the designs

http://www.kastenmarine.com/news.htm

his designs lean towards the "olde world" tug / trawler / gaff rig style boats
most are designed with a single hard chine and huge box keels and the designs are optimised for cnc cutting = large flat plates. At a glance I get the impression that he is invloved with the cutting facility

my take on this "new" boat is that the hull MUST absolutely of modern design, very smooth round bilges.
A proper design optimised with freeship or what ever software the designer is familiar with
this design must be optimised for the sake of the design and not for the sake of a prefered ship yards capabilities

here is a pic of the last boat that Wynand built in steel - an absolute work of art, first time in my life that I saw a steel boat with NO BODY FILLER PUTTY

just my 2 cents (no michael kasten design please thank you)

 

I can understand that.
And you, please understand, we DO NOT discuss multihulls here, that was a clearly stated condition!

All cats have a uncomfortable motion when the going gets tough, one sooner, others later, but the accelerations are always less predictable and not nice.

And the boats we discuss her (exclusively mono´s) are designed to circumnavigate and explore even the more nasty, remote places. Hence no cats.

Then, there is my personal aversion. I will never build anything that stays stable upside down once flipped over, when open ocean is the intended useage.
Hence no cats. period

Which one Manie??? (one mio us$$$ is not enough, even for the smallest, which is not even designed yet)

You said it already, too small, except one, and that is a floating condo.
Kasten is a well respected designer, no doubt, but I am missing the touch of art in his style. Just my personal opinion, but I don´t build what I don´t like! MY boats are MY expression of fine boatbuilding art.

Regards
Richard

 

I remember the picture Will, and that boat could well fit the bill for such vessel.

And I agree that is about the minimal size for ocean passages.

I disagree that boats in excess of 12meter become too difficult to handle.
These boats here are not offered to the novice, they are clearly tagged as blue water vessels. We can assume that this clientele has some experience under their belt, if not, bad luck.

Nobody expects he can operate a executive jet with a basic amateur pilot license and 50hrs airtime, same is valid for boats and ships.

Thanks for the flowers! I know I am....

Regards
Richard

 

No, No... I wasn't suggesting that they are difficult to handle - quite the opposite. That was the competition judges opinion(s). For the inexperienced, anything larger than a tender can be a scary proposition...
And apart from the physical need to get from one end of the boat to the other, there is no reason for a 20 metre boat to be any more difficult to handle than a 12 metre boat IMHO. And it is often the opposite, as the larger boat is often fitted with the equipment - hydraulic thrusters and the like - to make the job easier

 

Re. handling: My five-metre runabout can scare the s@#$ out of experienced small-boat guys when she's lightly loaded in a crosswind. Our town's sixty-metre car ferry can turn in its own length and be placed within thirty centimetres of a target by one man in any wind and sea condition our lake can generate. Size means very little where handling is concerned; hull design, propulsion and control systems mean a lot.

Tad, Will: I think the drawings that both of you have posted on here are a good reflection of what I hope will become the "new thing" in powerboats: long, efficient, not too tall, practical and elegant styling (none of this '97 Ford Taurus meets F-22 Raptor stuff you see at the boat shows).

A boat really ought to look the part for the role she plays. If she's a tug, she needs to portray raw strength and working practicality. If she's a racer, she ought to look sleek, clean and fast. If the boat's a dock queen, it needs to scream "there's an obscene amount of money invested in me". If she's a long-range expedition yacht, she should look elegant, classy, but with a no-nonsense practicality that says "this is what I am, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise". I think Tad's hitting pretty close to the mark with his last few posts on the PL series.

 

Richard, forgive me, I’ll go slightly off the topic of you thread with this one, by looking at the possibilities for the “poor man’s passagemaker”.

Mannie, if you want cheap to build, supper fuel efficient boat, last thing you should do is to limit length. Round bilges are also not very important. Difference between wetted area of round or two chine bilges is very small. (For the cruising speeds of this boat, say 4 – 8 knots, wave making is much bigger part of resistance then friction).

What you do need is very low displacement / waterline length ratio. Easiest and cheapest way to achieve it is to build long, narrow hull with a sharp bow.

If it is a real passagmaker, able to go economically everywhere, I don’t think that gentleman’s yacht, (beautiful, I agree), would be optimal shape.

Sardine carrier or older generation life boat shape would be more appropriate for the task. I would also put rig on her. (I know, I know, we already concluded that sailing is not cheap. It is true for a modern, highly efficient rig. Smaller passage maker is other story – it will never sail to windward. If just auxiliary sails are needed, for reaching, broad reaching and running, then rig and sails can be very cheap. Perfect shape is not critical – lower aspect ratio short gaff sail would be OK. It is easy to handle and repair, has very simple gear, and long life).

I would suggest dimensions of about 20 meters long, 4 meters wide. Two masts of about 9 – 10 meters above deck .

Biggest saving would be in avoiding expensive nautical toys and luxuries, keeping everything simple, work-boat style. During voyaging, huge amount of fuel could be saved by careful route planning, making use of favourable currents and winds and motoring at slower revs.

In attachment, boat shape and rig type that would work well for this task, in my opinion.

 

In mid Atlantic storm, I would like to be on the later and not on the former.
Not only it is beautiful as you said, but also a very good ship capable to take the right amount of cargo, like fuel, oil, water, grey water, black water, food, drinks, all the several tons needed for long and extended cruises. the space to take care of the engine with full headroom can be found almost only on relatively heavy hull, by the nature of the design.
I am of course talking of real offshore vessel with large spectrum of capability and range between 7000 to 9000 Nm.
A light vessel as attractive it is, lake of of volume to carry the cargo needed.
The sails are very attractive, and something perhaps can be blend on the design.
Taking some feature from the steam yacht era as an inspiration, perhaps.
But my main feature will be weight and draft. And keeping the CG as low as possible on a well balanced hull with a good weight repartition, to keep the antiroll device at the dealership where they belong.
Just some thoughts.
Daniel

 

This is a search and rescue lifeboat from the 1970 perhaps transfromed for other purpose I think.

 

To be honest.. my limits in this regard are around 33' LOA so obviously there's no place to bulk all the fuel for really long passages (not any island hopping in mind) so to achieve the range having sails is a necessity. And I do think we should put up another thread for this "vagabond" concept, it's a way too different compared to perfect one..

 

To return to the styling focus of this thread.......

Styling that may appear to be elegant in a 74' size, long, low, and simple, may become rather boring at 40'. Most of the problem is that people don't get smaller as their boats shrink, therefore heights and (to some extent) beam remain constant......

In trying to incorporate a modern passagemaker style, with some features of the Gentleman's motoryacht.....I end up with more sole levels than I like......

And I agree that this is too small to be comfortable on longer passages, especially as you have to travel very slowly to gain the range. But such a vessel can be great for coastal passages of 1000 miles or so.

So we end up with ........

 

the ocean 55 drew a good response from the crowd - personally i thought it had a cool, almost commercial look to it - any more development along those lines?

 

This thread has gone from style and beauty to engineering and seaworthyness .
I like your coastal cruiser TAD but a strange thing happens. When I look at the thumbnail the sheer line looks awkward but click on the thumnail and w a bigger image it looks fine. ??
dskira,
As for beauty that rescue/lifeboat is a looser but for it's size is almost certainly a good passagemaker.
I voted for the gentleman's yacht but I like the Fantail Steamer better.
I think most voted for what they like or prefer rather than the best design relative to art and beauty.

Easy Rider

 

She was built during 1920’s, for Dutch lifeboat organization. She was first, relatively big, (about 20 meters), steel – self righting ship at the time, stayed in active duty until mid 1960’s.

Length is cheap. With slightly bigger budget you can build 15 m LOA, 3 m beam. Money for the longer hull would quickly return from reduced fuel consumption.

Yes, you are right. I will start a new thread.

Daniel, Easy Rider, I don’t doubt offshore abilities of gentleman yacht in the size and price range Richard has in mind. It is different with a smaller, CHEAP passagemaker however – it needs some sails and it can’t be done with a superstructure of gentleman’s yacht.